2024 Draft Debate and Discussion

[topwop1]

4 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Real ones will remember Joshua Moore too. If I remember right he did like 2 bench reps at the combine lol. 

Oh wow there's a name I actually had to look up.  Funny how we get so invested in these draft picks and a lot of time they never amount to anything

Or maybe that's just because our management has sucked for so long 

[Madmike90]

I have been watching a lot of Caleb recently meaning a lot of USC games and I really feel MarShawn Lloyd is an underrated RB this year...he reminds me a lot of Kahlil Herbert but with better receiving skills and maybe even a little more wiggle in the open field...we know that Waldron had quality backs in Seattle and used multiple guys...even after Kenneth Walker had a great year they still valued the position enough to draft Charbonnet in the 2nd last year...if we can create some more picks then pairing him up with Herbert & Johnson would give us a really good rotation and create another comfort level for Caleb.

[Madmike90]

 

 

[StLunatic88]

15 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

 

 

All stuff that could obviously apply to Caleb, but just about all of it can also apply to Justin.

Again, no one is saying CW doesnt stack up when you put on the tape, he has great arm talent and playmaking in him (although I till think a cetain sect of fans are overblowing this, especially invoking Mahomes) but the real evaluation of Caleb Williams is going to be between the ears. (as well as a couple very important measurements at the Combine)

Not can he read defenses and diagnose plays (although thats part of it) but can he handle being QB1 in the NFL and the media machine that comes with being that guy in the Chicago Media Market. And when looking at that stuff, we are limited since we dont get to interact with hi. But the stuff he did put out into the public in 2023 after he was crowned the next great prospect, really starts to worry me as you stack them up.

Thats where they really have to make a decision here, this cant be a half assed Draft Day style scouting, every single stone needs to be unturned. Its why I expect we see a ton of USC interviews/visitors. The Kliff interview was only the first. Id expect Rice and Lloyd to be multi time guys with their talent and connection to Caleb, but also some stuff with just about every eligible prospect from USC.

[Madmike90]

41 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

All stuff that could obviously apply to Caleb, but just about all of it can also apply to Justin.

Again, no one is saying CW doesnt stack up when you put on the tape, he has great arm talent and playmaking in him (although I till think a cetain sect of fans are overblowing this, especially invoking Mahomes) but the real evaluation of Caleb Williams is going to be between the ears. (as well as a couple very important measurements at the Combine)

Not can he read defenses and diagnose plays (although thats part of it) but can he handle being QB1 in the NFL and the media machine that comes with being that guy in the Chicago Media Market. And when looking at that stuff, we are limited since we dont get to interact with hi. But the stuff he did put out into the public in 2023 after he was crowned the next great prospect, really starts to worry me as you stack them up.

Thats where they really have to make a decision here, this cant be a half assed Draft Day style scouting, every single stone needs to be unturned. Its why I expect we see a ton of USC interviews/visitors. The Kliff interview was only the first. Id expect Rice and Lloyd to be multi time guys with their talent and connection to Caleb, but also some stuff with just about every eligible prospect from USC.

I think this has always been the key for Caleb...the talent is obvious...the interviews are all important...

I also agree almost everything Joseph said applies to both QBs...the only thing that is a big more Caleb than Justin is the swagger...Justin at times can be a little robotic at times because like a ton of great QBs he has learned be be a great QB...Caleb just seems like he was born to do it with how confident he is in his ability.

[Sugashane]

3 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

All stuff that could obviously apply to Caleb, but just about all of it can also apply to Justin.

Again, no one is saying CW doesnt stack up when you put on the tape, he has great arm talent and playmaking in him (although I till think a cetain sect of fans are overblowing this, especially invoking Mahomes) but the real evaluation of Caleb Williams is going to be between the ears. (as well as a couple very important measurements at the Combine)

Not can he read defenses and diagnose plays (although thats part of it) but can he handle being QB1 in the NFL and the media machine that comes with being that guy in the Chicago Media Market. And when looking at that stuff, we are limited since we dont get to interact with hi. But the stuff he did put out into the public in 2023 after he was crowned the next great prospect, really starts to worry me as you stack them up.

Thats where they really have to make a decision here, this cant be a half assed Draft Day style scouting, every single stone needs to be unturned. Its why I expect we see a ton of USC interviews/visitors. The Kliff interview was only the first. Id expect Rice and Lloyd to be multi time guys with their talent and connection to Caleb, but also some stuff with just about every eligible prospect from USC.

I still say Justin isn't a rah-rah guy, but that doesn't make someone a better leader or not. Lovie Smith was overrated as a HC but players would run into oncoming traffic for him. He was quiet. Warner was a fantastic leader, he wasn't loud. Same for Dungy, Barry Sanders, Joe Montana, Larry Fitzgerald, etc. Theres a ton of greats who weren't loud or showoffs, so I'm not concerned about Fields' leadership.

Agree about the concerns too, being a stud in college is different than in the NFL. Markets are bigger, there are less games and in Chicago there are no games that aren't getting a lot of attention. There's only 16 games per week at most, so getting lost in the 50+ college ones (and a lot with slack games just to fill out a season schedule) just isn't going to happen.

I had a lot of concerns about Poles coming in just because we had so little on him other than he helped in KC. But I am damn happy to say - confidently - that he won't Ryan Pace this decision. No cute story about a Camry or setting a reservation under a mini-legend for the team's name is going to make him the pick. Poles will do whatever he thinks is right and I believe for the long-term rather than an act of desperation. There will be a rational reason, he'll project for the next offseason, and make the decision that he deems best for the franchise.

Makes for a bit less of a concerning offseason for me personally, even if I end up disagreeing with a move I'm sure he'll have reasoning behind it.

[dll2000]

Bears twitter or X in a nutshell this week

 

[Madmike90]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

Bears twitter or X in a nutshell this week

 

Anything to do with bowl games or the combine should only make you go back to watch actual games...JPJ really stands out when you watch him...

Darius Robinson is the same...a guy people were massively sleeping on and now because he has practiced so well people are going back and watching Missouri tape and seeing he is a quality edge.

[Epyon]

There's a very real chance he goes mid first round if he keeps looking this good in Mobile, and then has a solid combine.

That's high for a center....but I honestly wouldn't hate trading back in the first with him as the target at this point.

The ONLY reservations I'd have grabbing him are:

1. If we get Caleb, it'd a bit rougher year 1 acclimating a rookie Center WITH a rookie qb.....

2. The WR and Edge depth is mostly rounds 1-2. I kind of want to get a stud at one of those spots.

 

Those things said, if we where to do an "overreaction mock" to the Senior Bowl so far.... trading back from 9 and getting  JPJ at center AND Roman Wilson at WR sounds like a better deal than just Odunze at WR.

 

 

[Madmike90]

Call it the Tank Dell effect but one receiver in this draft I am really starting to like is Xavier Worthy out of Texas in that 2nd round range...probably comes into the combine around 6-0" 175lbs but plays much bigger on the field...obviously elite level speed as a 10.55 100m runner in high school but he isn't just a track guy showing real receiver skills from his rookie season onwards...isn't afraid to get physical and throws his shoulder into guys if he thinks he can gain some extra yards...explosive punt returner and those skills are evident in the open field on offence as well where he can take a short pass a long way...him and DJ with another bigger bodies receiver would gives us a really nice combination of receivers.

[Epyon]

37 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

Call it the Tank Dell effect but one receiver in this draft I am really starting to like is Xavier Worthy out of Texas in that 2nd round range...probably comes into the combine around 6-0" 175lbs but plays much bigger on the field...obviously elite level speed as a 10.55 100m runner in high school but he isn't just a track guy showing real receiver skills from his rookie season onwards...isn't afraid to get physical and throws his shoulder into guys if he thinks he can gain some extra yards...explosive punt returner and those skills are evident in the open field on offence as well where he can take a short pass a long way...him and DJ with another bigger bodies receiver would gives us a really nice combination of receivers.

I haven't watched a ton of his tape, but kinda reminded me of Jordan Addison.... smaller guy, but super fast, and runs good routes.  In Worthy's case he's also taller than Addison was I think.

I still prefer Troy Franklin for a more deep threat guy in the early second, but Worthy is certainly worthy too.

[dll2000]

On 1/30/2024 at 4:22 PM, StLunatic88 said:

All stuff that could obviously apply to Caleb, but just about all of it can also apply to Justin.

Again, no one is saying CW doesnt stack up when you put on the tape, he has great arm talent and playmaking in him (although I till think a cetain sect of fans are overblowing this, especially invoking Mahomes) but the real evaluation of Caleb Williams is going to be between the ears. (as well as a couple very important measurements at the Combine)

Not can he read defenses and diagnose plays (although thats part of it) but can he handle being QB1 in the NFL and the media machine that comes with being that guy in the Chicago Media Market. And when looking at that stuff, we are limited since we dont get to interact with hi. But the stuff he did put out into the public in 2023 after he was crowned the next great prospect, really starts to worry me as you stack them up.

Thats where they really have to make a decision here, this cant be a half assed Draft Day style scouting, every single stone needs to be unturned. Its why I expect we see a ton of USC interviews/visitors. The Kliff interview was only the first. Id expect Rice and Lloyd to be multi time guys with their talent and connection to Caleb, but also some stuff with just about every eligible prospect from USC.

To be fair I think when (some) people say he is like Mahomes they mean he plays with same style and has similar physical talent.  

Not really a prediction that he will have same success and achievement. 

[dll2000]

13 hours ago, Epyon said:

There's a very real chance he goes mid first round if he keeps looking this good in Mobile, and then has a solid combine.

That's high for a center....but I honestly wouldn't hate trading back in the first with him as the target at this point.

The ONLY reservations I'd have grabbing him are:

1. If we get Caleb, it'd a bit rougher year 1 acclimating a rookie Center WITH a rookie qb.....

2. The WR and Edge depth is mostly rounds 1-2. I kind of want to get a stud at one of those spots.

 

Those things said, if we where to do an "overreaction mock" to the Senior Bowl so far.... trading back from 9 and getting  JPJ at center AND Roman Wilson at WR sounds like a better deal than just Odunze at WR.

 

 

This is where Poles has not been good.  His center plan has failed.  Now we will have zero centers in all likelihood soon.   

Going to need to pick up both a starter and a back up for 2024. 

[StLunatic88]

2 hours ago, dll2000 said:

To be fair I think when (some) people say he is like Mahomes they mean he plays with same style and has similar physical talent.  

Which is the lazy an incorrect assessment. People see Williams make plays on the move outside of structure and go "See, Mahomes!!" And that just isnt how Mahomes does it.

He knows how important running the system is and stays inside that structure until the last moment possible. THAT is what makes Patrick Mahomes so special. There are a Ton of QBs who have been out of structure playmakers (we actually have one) its the ability and maturity to stick with the plan, and only improvise when absolutely necessary that makes what they do in KC so special.

Williams looks like he always wants to default to playmaker mode, even before the play fully develops. Which as Ive said, works great in college (because defenses are undisciplined) but can quickly become disaster in the NFL

Edited February 1 by StLunatic88

[dll2000]

29 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Which is the lazy an incorrect assessment. People see Williams make plays on the move outside of structure and go "See, Mahomes!!" And that just isnt how Mahomes does it.

He knows how important running the system is and stays inside that structure until the last moment possible. THAT is what makes Patrick Mahomes so special. There are a Ton of QBs who have been out of structure playmakers (we actually have one) its the ability and maturity to stick with the plan, and only improvise when absolutely necessary that makes what they do in KC so special.

Williams looks like he always wants to default to playmaker mode, even before the play fully develops. Which as Ive said, works great in college (because defenses are undisciplined) but can quickly become disaster in the NFL

 

I don't know that it is incorrect comparison.  To same degree as a legendary player yes. 

Rodgers, Mahomes and Ben R. all played like that to varying degrees of success.  Rodgers more conservatively, but he often held the ball until he felt truly threatened past his progressions and timing.  

I think big difference between Fields and Caleb (amongst other things) is Caleb scrambles with his eyes up field much more so than Fields.  Which is more similar to above guys as well.    

Also similar is he has a quick release like Rodgers and Mahomes.  Fields does not.  So the last second decisions have a greater chance of success with that ability.  

A lot of people also argue Caleb recent tape is misleading because he was forced to play hero ball to win games given his team.  That is not without some merit.  

We will see what happens long term.  I am sure there will be rookie ups and downs.  I am also pretty sure Bears are taking him so we will find out for good or ill.