Aaron Rodgers Back to the IR.

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, ChazStandard said:

How do we know the doc wasn't pressuring him to play?

Wait...you mean one of the most conservative doctors in the NFL forced a player to play?  That's amusing.  The fact is that after Dr. McKenzie cleared him to play and he didn't like the results, Mike McCarthy told him to get other opinions which presumably came back with a similar response since if he got other diagnosis that he needed surgery he would have been IRed and that would have been the end of it.

[ChazStandard]

12 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

And he went on the IR for a totally different reason...something you completely ignored yet again.  I don't know how many times we have to go over this.  He went on the IR because of the hamstring, not the shoulder.

No, he hurt his hamstring, and since he was missing time anyway he had surgery on his shoulder. The injury report clearly cited both. If he'd just hurt his hamstring, he wouldn't be on IR. He could definitely have been back for the play-offs. The official IR listing is torn rotator cuff and hamstring injuries. If the shoulder isn't really hurt, he's somehow convinced the Pats to play along. You keep ignoring that.

I don't completely understand the Packers' position to be honest, did he conceal the injury or make it up? You can't say he lied about an injury he never had.

Also, how did he throw the doctor under the bus? All he said was that he wasn't comfortable and wanted another opinion. What's wrong with that?

Here's a direct quote:

Quote

“Dr. McKenzie didn’t make [me] feel safe and was pushing to play which I thought was weird,” Bennett wrote. “Not that he was trying to get me to play thru it but the way he was saying things. I didn’t trust him. So I got three other opinions from doctors who all said I need to get it fixed. So I decided to do that. And they decided to waive me with some bulls–t excuse.”

At the end of the day, Bennett is injured. The Packers could have put him on IR, instead they cut him for what appears to be a made up reason.

I still don't see how Bennett has been a tool, I'm seriously asking. What has he done before now? When he was on the Pats, he was eccentric but never selfish or a bad influence. He even played banged up to chase the Superbowl, and was a valuable member of that team.

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, ChazStandard said:

No, he hurt his hamstring, and since he was missing time anyway he had surgery on his shoulder. The injury report clearly cited both. If he'd just hurt his hamstring, he wouldn't be on IR. He could definitely have been back for the play-offs. The official IR listing is torn rotator cuff and hamstring injuries. If the shoulder isn't really hurt, he's somehow convinced the Pats to play along. You keep ignoring that.

The press release that the Patriots put out clearly cited the hamstring as the reason for the IR, which indicates that it was the pressing issue.  Just because he opted to have shoulder surgery while he was already out doesn't make it the reason.  He played on that bum shoulder for two games.  Do you truly believe that he somehow injured that shoulder even futher?

 

4 minutes ago, ChazStandard said:

I don't completely understand the Packers' position to be honest, did he conceal the injury or make it up? You can't say he lied about an injury he never had.

As it's been discussed ad nauseam, it's the players' duty to report any injury he might have before he signs the contract.  The Packers are arguing that he failed to disclose an injury.  This most likely happened (and admittedly I'm speculating) that whenever they were doing the testing when his shoulder flared up, he said something about it being injured going back to the offseason.  If that's the case, that's a breach of contract and a violation of the CBA.  That's against the rule.  That's really what the Packers are arguing is that Bennett said something about it going back a while.

6 minutes ago, ChazStandard said:

Also, how did he throw the doctor under the bus? All he said was that he wasn't comfortable and wanted another opinion. What's wrong with that?

You MIGHT want to go re-read the initial comments.  He essentially said that Dr. McKenzie forced him to play when he was injured.  Like it's been mentioned, that's a pretty significant accusation to make.

[ChazStandard]

33 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

The press release that the Patriots put out clearly cited the hamstring as the reason for the IR, which indicates that it was the pressing issue.  Just because he opted to have shoulder surgery while he was already out doesn't make it the reason.  He played on that bum shoulder for two games.  Do you truly believe that he somehow injured that shoulder even futher?

No, I believe he had a torn rotator cuff, and the Packers' season being over, he wanted it fixed. Then he was on the Patriots, suddenly the season wasn't over, and he pushed through the injury for the sake of the team.

It's really a very, very simple concept.

[childofpudding]

Good choice. They probably shouldn't have played him at all, given that it would have been very difficult for them to run the table with Rodgers just coming back from injury, and that he'd have to return to peak performance levels for GB to do any damage in the playoffs. But I can understand why they gave it a shot. He'll be tearing it up again next season.

[Ketchup]

3 hours ago, ChazStandard said:

No, I believe he had a torn rotator cuff, and the Packers' season being over, he wanted it fixed. Then he was on the Patriots, suddenly the season wasn't over, and he pushed through the injury for the sake of the team.

It's really a very, very simple concept.

Except our season wasn’t over. Bennett assumed it was over. If every player that was/is playing hurt decided he wanted to go on IR after he thought the season was over or the team lost a superstar player, there wouldn’t be any players left to play. Bennett signed with GB to play for a SB and with an elite QB. When that elite QB got hurt, he threw in the towel instead of trying to help the team he signed a contract for win football games. We were still in the playoff hunt up until last week so do tell me how our season was over after week 8. Bennett quit on the team when Rodgers went down and that’s not really debatable. 

[ChazStandard]

1 hour ago, Ketchup said:

Except our season wasn’t over. Bennett assumed it was over. If every player that was/is playing hurt decided he wanted to go on IR after he thought the season was over or the team lost a superstar player, there wouldn’t be any players left to play. Bennett signed with GB to play for a SB and with an elite QB. When that elite QB got hurt, he threw in the towel instead of trying to help the team he signed a contract for win football games. We were still in the playoff hunt up until last week so do tell me how our season was over after week 8. Bennett quit on the team when Rodgers went down and that’s not really debatable. 

...and so did everyone else.

Are you suggesting the majority of NFL players are playing with a torn rotator cuff?

[AlexGreen#20]

2 hours ago, ChazStandard said:

...and so did everyone else.

Are you suggesting the majority of NFL players are playing with a torn rotator cuff?

He played games for the Patriots. If he was too injured to play, he was too injured to play, but you don't give up on a season because one player is injured. 

Of course you know this and are intentionally being obtuse, so I don't know why I'm arguing with you.

Got to give you credit, when it comes to playing dumb, you truly are the top of the class. 

[Uncle Buck]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:20 PM, CWood21 said:

Weirdly enough, pointing out facts isn't exactly trolling.  In good taste?  Probably not, but not factually incorrect.  The Vikings have only had one pair of back-to-back seasons where they posted double digit wins since 2000...that's not exactly setting the world on fire.  That's four seasons in 16 seasons before this year.  Compare that to the Packers who've won double digit games in 12 of those same 16 seasons.  It's literally not even a comparison.

Teams go through periods like that.  Do you recall the 1970's?  How about the 1980's?  How many double digit win seasons did the Packers have during that TWENTY YEAR time span?  The Vikings went through some difficult years since 2000, but they also went to three NFC Championship games, won the division several times, and made the playoffs as a wildcard in several other seasons during that time. 

The way I see it, looking out over the next decade, one of our teams is an ascending team, and one of them is a descending team.  Those of us who have been watching the game for a long time have seen it all before.  Time makes its changes, and nothing lasts forever.

[CKSteeler]

While it would never be enforced, isn't that actually breaking the IR rules? If Rodgers was healthy enough to come back and play, and would still be playing if the Packers were in contention for a playoff spot, he technically isn't eligible for IR. It's for players with major injuries who are unable to practice or play. No one is arguing Rodgers aggravated anything. So they're saving a roster spot and bringing another guy on board in the spot that should technically go to Rodgers. It's like a reverse of stashing a young guy you want to develop on IR to keep the vet.

Minor as they're using that spot for a scrub QB, but still technically against the rules.

[ChazStandard]

11 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

He played games for the Patriots. If he was too injured to play, he was too injured to play, but you don't give up on a season because one player is injured. 

Of course you know this and are intentionally being obtuse, so I don't know why I'm arguing with you.

Got to give you credit, when it comes to playing dumb, you truly are the top of the class. 

You can be sarcastic and rude as much as you like, it doesn't make you clever. It just makes you wrong AND unpleasant.

I'm not being obtuse, I'm being rational. The simplest explanation is most often the correct one.

At the end of the day, the Packer's contention seems to be that Bennett pretended to be healthy when he signed the contract, and then pretended he was hurt to get put on IR. Both of those things can't be true.

Then you get to the even more extreme (and downright silly) part, where Bennett lies about not liking the way Dr McKenzie talked to him, lies about the second opinions, and lies when he tells teams not to claim him because he wants shoulder surgery. The Patriots, who must be in on it, are ready to pick him off waivers, having somehow correctly guessed that 1) The Packers would cut him instead of stashing him on IR and 2) No team ahead of them would claim him.

Having cleverly worked his way OFF the Pack and ON to the Patriots, he pretends to be favouring his injured arm for 2 games, before hurting his hamstring. The hamstring injury is real, unlike the shoulder injury, but instead of just waiting a few weeks and being fit for the post-season, Bennett decides to have imaginary surgery on his pretend torn rotator cuff and goes on IR. The Patriots, for ever indulgent of player BS and known for their tolerance when it comes to drama and shenanigans , put him on IR with an (entirely fictional) desgination of "torn rotator cuff and hamstring injuries".

Somehow that seems a lot more complicated an explanation than "the Packers' front office tried to strong-arm an injured player into risking his long-term fitness, and it blew up in their faces."

As for being fit to play for the Patriots and not the Packers, well that's been covered. People are not robots. They push through pain on a risk-reward basis. And, more than that, if they feel like their sacrifice is being respected they will generally work harder than if they feel like they are being taken for granted. Motivating your players by making them feel valued is part of the job of a coach.

"I don't care if your shoulder hurts, our doctor says you're OK so go play or we'll cut you" isn't going to persuade anyone to do anything.
 

 

 

[Pugger]

29 minutes ago, ChazStandard said:

You can be sarcastic and rude as much as you like, it doesn't make you clever. It just makes you wrong AND unpleasant.

I'm not being obtuse, I'm being rational. The simplest explanation is most often the correct one.

At the end of the day, the Packer's contention seems to be that Bennett pretended to be healthy when he signed the contract, and then pretended he was hurt to get put on IR. Both of those things can't be true.

Then you get to the even more extreme (and downright silly) part, where Bennett lies about not liking the way Dr McKenzie talked to him, lies about the second opinions, and lies when he tells teams not to claim him because he wants shoulder surgery. The Patriots, who must be in on it, are ready to pick him off waivers, having somehow correctly guessed that 1) The Packers would cut him instead of stashing him on IR and 2) No team ahead of them would claim him.

Having cleverly worked his way OFF the Pack and ON to the Patriots, he pretends to be favouring his injured arm for 2 games, before hurting his hamstring. The hamstring injury is real, unlike the shoulder injury, but instead of just waiting a few weeks and being fit for the post-season, Bennett decides to have imaginary surgery on his pretend torn rotator cuff and goes on IR. The Patriots, for ever indulgent of player BS and known for their tolerance when it comes to drama and shenanigans , put him on IR with an (entirely fictional) desgination of "torn rotator cuff and hamstring injuries".

Somehow that seems a lot more complicated an explanation than "the Packers' front office tried to strong-arm an injured player into risking his long-term fitness, and it blew up in their faces."

As for being fit to play for the Patriots and not the Packers, well that's been covered. People are not robots. They push through pain on a risk-reward basis. And, more than that, if they feel like their sacrifice is being respected they will generally work harder than if they feel like they are being taken for granted. Motivating your players by making them feel valued is part of the job of a coach.

"I don't care if your shoulder hurts, our doctor says you're OK so go play or we'll cut you" isn't going to persuade anyone to do anything.
 

 

 

For a guy who wasn't there you seem to think you know exactly what happened in GB.  How come you are almost the only person here with this POV?  

[ChazStandard]

Just now, Pugger said:

For a guy who wasn't there you seem to think you know exactly what happened in GB.  How come you are almost the only person here with this POV?  

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was the only person on this forum who wasn't actually in the room when all this happened. I assumed we were all third-parties arguing over the interpretation of the available evidence. I will, of course, bow to the knowledge of all the eye-witnesses and their first hand accounts...the moment you point them out to me.

Even if I were the "only person" with this POV (which I'm not), being in the minority doesn't make one wrong. And nothng good comes from assuming it does.

[AlexGreen#20]

1 minute ago, ChazStandard said:

You can be sarcastic and rude as much as you like, it doesn't make you clever. It just makes you wrong AND unpleasant.

I'm not being obtuse, I'm being rational. The simplest explanation is most often the correct one.

At the end of the day, the Packer's contention seems to be that Bennett pretended to be healthy when he signed the contract, and then pretended he was hurt to get put on IR. Both of those things can't be true.

Then you get to the even more extreme (and downright silly) part, where Bennett lies about not liking the way Dr McKenzie talked to him, lies about the second opinions, and lies when he tells teams not to claim him because he wants shoulder surgery. The Patriots, who must be in on it, are ready to pick him off waivers, having somehow correctly guessed that 1) The Packers would cut him instead of stashing him on IR and 2) No team ahead of them would claim him.

Having cleverly worked his way OFF the Pack and ON to the Patriots, he pretends to be favouring his injured arm for 2 games, before hurting his hamstring. The hamstring injury is real, unlike the shoulder injury, but instead of just waiting a few weeks and being fit for the post-season, Bennett decides to have imaginary surgery on his pretend torn rotator cuff and goes on IR. The Patriots, for ever indulgent of player BS and known for their tolerance when it comes to drama and shenanigans , put him on IR with an (entirely fictional) desgination of "torn rotator cuff and hamstring injuries".

Somehow that seems a lot more complicated an explanation than "the Packers' front office tried to strong-arm an injured player into risking his long-term fitness, and it blew up in their faces."

As for being fit to play for the Patriots and not the Packers, well that's been covered. People are not robots. They push through pain on a risk-reward basis. And, more than that, if they feel like their sacrifice is being respected they will generally work harder than if they feel like they are being taken for granted. Motivating your players by making them feel valued is part of the job of a coach.

"I don't care if your shoulder hurts, our doctor says you're OK so go play or we'll cut you" isn't going to persuade anyone to do anything.
 

 

 

You fail to understand nuance, whether intentionally or unintentionally is hard to tell with you. 

There is a significant difference between Martellus Bennett completely healthy at 100% and Martellus Bennett at 80% because of an existing shoulder injury. According to the CBA, agreed to between all teams and all players, the Packers have a right to know which player they are signing. If Martellus Bennett failed to disclose his injury he is in violation of the CBA and by extension his contract.

There is an expectation in the NFL that players will play at less than 100% health. Every player on the field right now is dealing with various minor ailments. If players went on IR for every sprain or jam, NFL rosters would need to be 500 players deep. The expectation is that if a player is capable of playing through the injury in a way that is beneficial to the goals of the team, does not further exacerbate long term injury to the player and is not unreasonably painful, then the player will play. We know that Bennett was capable of all of those things because he played in games for the New England Patriots.

Bennett playing in games for the Patriots proves that McKenzie's diagnosis was correct. Bennett was capable of playing in NFL games and did not need to go on IR. Bennett and the Patriots training staff have all confirmed that diagnosis. What you seem to fail to understand is that Martellus Bennett is not a volunteer who can pick and choose what games to play in based on whether he feels like it on a given day. The man signed a contract. "Pushing past pain on a risk reward basis" and "Needing to be motivated to play" have no basis in this argument. Bennett was trying to weasel his way out of a contractual obligation. 

+++

You don't think the far more likely scenario that occurred is:

Bennett had a nagging shoulder injury that he failed to disclose. He's been playing in the NFL for a long time. Most vets are carrying around these nagging injuries that they don't even see as relevant any longer. They are still contractually obligated to disclose them. I'd be willing to bet 75% of vet free agents don't disclose all of their nagging injuries over the years. In that sense what Bennett did isn't unusual.

After being here for a few months, Bennett hated the city of Green Bay, hated getting Boo'd for kneeling, hated that the coaching staff wouldn't do more with his brother and his political agenda, and thought that the Packers were going to suck without Rodgers. He wanted off the team. I've been in GB. GB sucks to live in. If I could live in Boston rather than GB, I would do so every day of the week.

He decided he didn't want to play anymore. His shoulder was hurting more, he hated the city, and hated the team without Rodgers. He made his announcement that he was going to retire next year. Then went to the doctor and said my shoulder is busted, put me on IR. He thought he was going to be sent home, and be allowed to collect 3 years worth of a contract for playing half of a year.

McKenzie examined his shoulder and said, "Yeah your shoulder is injured, but not so extensively that you can't play the rest of the season. I can't recommend to everybody that you go on IR. Here's you painkillers, and a rehab schedule that we can work with to improve your shoulder."

Not getting the answer that he wanted, Bennett complained to McCarthy about the situation. McCarthy told him, "Fine, go seek a second opinion." We know this point happened.

We don't know what the doctors say. We know Bennett claims that they told him that he couldn't play. 

At this point, speculation would be that Bennett either refused to go through treatment or refused to show up or in general refused to do something. The Packers then cut him for quitting on the team and began the motions to go after the signing bonus for not meeting the requirements of his contract. 

We then know that Bennett continued to play in NFL games until he was placed on IR after a completely different hamstring injury. This action alone proves that Bennett was incorrect about needing to go on IR and needing surgery.

[CWood21]

7 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

Teams go through periods like that.  Do you recall the 1970's?  How about the 1980's?  How many double digit win seasons did the Packers have during that TWENTY YEAR time span?  The Vikings went through some difficult years since 2000, but they also went to three NFC Championship games, won the division several times, and made the playoffs as a wildcard in several other seasons during that time. 

The way I see it, looking out over the next decade, one of our teams is an ascending team, and one of them is a descending team.  Those of us who have been watching the game for a long time have seen it all before.  Time makes its changes, and nothing lasts forever.

Nobody is denying.  I'm pointing out the hypocritical stance that saying something negative about another fanbase is trolling.  It's not.  Maybe the Vikings are in for another decade of dominance?  Maybe this is just a flash in the pan.  The fact is that this sample size isn't large enough to really make one definitive opinion or another.  The Vikings' success is also happening during the same time that the Packers are struggling, specifically at QB.  How much of their success looks better because of the Packers' struggles?