Detroit signs Jared Goff to 4 year extension worth $212 million/$170 M guaranteed

[tyler735]

24 minutes ago, General Tso said:

Also, the discourse around Goff seems inconsistent compared to other QBs. Goff is elevated by his talent? Have you ever considered he's the one who made a 4th rd WR into an All Pro or a 2nd round TE rookie into an AP? Campbell has never been a HC (besides interim) and Ben Johnson has never been an OC and Goff is executing their offense.

Guess he gets no credit for that because of the "narrative."

I’ve definitely considered the fact that Cooper Kupp never made a Pro Bowl/All Pro until his 2021 season.

I’ve considered that in 16 games (including playoffs) in 2020 Kupp had 1,050 receiving yards and 3 touchdowns with Goff throwing to him. Then in 2021 (including playoffs), in Kupp’s first season without Goff, Kupp had over 2,400 receiving yards and 22 touchdowns. 

So yeah I suppose I have a hard time believing Goff is the one turning Amon-Ra and Laporta into top level weapons. Doesn’t mean Goff isn’t a good QB, but let’s be real here.

[General Tso]

4 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

I’ve definitely considered the fact that Cooper Kupp never made a Pro Bowl/All Pro until his 2021 season.

I’ve considered that in 16 games (including playoffs) in 2020 Kupp had 1,050 receiving yards and 3 touchdowns with Goff throwing to him. Then in 2021 (including playoffs), in Kupp’s first season without Goff, Kupp had over 2,400 receiving yards and 22 touchdowns. 

So yeah I suppose I have a hard time believing Goff is the one turning Amon-Ra and Laporta into top level weapons. Doesn’t mean Goff isn’t a good QB, but let’s be real here.

I will let Rams fans fully answer this because I don't know all the roster details at that point.

But for one thing, that 2021 season was Kupp's first season where he started all games in the season. Another thing is he had disproportionately heavy targets in 2021, I mean, I would like to think he'd get those volume stats when he gets that many targets. Just seems like Stafford had an unreal connection with Kupp that year.

[iknowcool]

Hard to buy into the idea that Goff is responsible for the success of Amon-Ra and LaPorta when we didn't see much of that elevating from Goff between 2019-2021.  Besides, I would lean towards the running game and offensive line being the biggest reason for Goff turning it around, not his WR or TE.  He was at his best in LA when he had Gurley and solid OL.

Not saying that to take away from Goff.  I agree with you that people shouldn't do that just because he plays on a good team, because at the end of the day you still have to play well.  But I also don't think it is right to paint him as this QB who is turning guys into All-Pros.  Goff is not that guy and he's kind of proven that.  Nothing wrong with the kind of QB Goff is, it just ain't as that kind of QB.  

Which is why I'm not a big fan of the contract, but understand why the Lions felt it was necessary.  Because it is better to have a solid QB than to try and find a great one, especially for a team like the Lions who have the talent to compete now.  

Edited May 14 by iknowcool

[ronjon1990]

Good for him. As much as I respect McVay, their handling of Goff at the end was fumbled and a lot of people wrote him off as a 1-3 year bridge QB Detroit would use and discard ASAP. Despite really good years and a Superbowl appearance, he was still seemingly strapped with the "bust" label. 

Then he goes to Detroit and does what he's done after being written off. Totally deserves this outcome, I say. 

And for anyone decrying him for needing a good coach and supporting cast- show me more than 5 QBs right now that are "better" tha. Goff and don't have at least one of those things- amd don't give me "upside" or "potential" to prop up Herbert or Lawrence. This is a results based business and their draft profiles are now irrelevant. 

 

 

[General Tso]

9 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Hard to buy into the idea that Goff is responsible for the success of Amon-Ra and LaPorta when we didn't see much of that elevating from Goff between 2019-2021.  Besides, I would lean towards the running game and offensive line being the biggest reason for Goff turning it around, not his WR or TE.  He was at his best in LA when he had Gurley and solid OL.

Not saying that to take away from Goff.  I agree with you that people shouldn't do that just because he plays on a good team, because at the end of the day you still have to play well.  But I also don't think it is right to paint him as this QB who is turning guys into All-Pros (I'm not even sure that you genuinely believe that).  Goff is not that guy and he's kind of proven that.  Nothing wrong with the kind of QB Goff is, it just ain't as that kind of QB.  

Which is why I'm not a big fan of the contract, but understand why the Lions felt it was necessary.  Because it is better to have a solid QB than to try and find a great one, especially for a team like the Lions who have the talent to compete now.  

I'm mostly arguing that we shouldn't hold it against Goff that he plays with good players. It's a chicken or egg question. I think his connection with his receivers certainly helps them get better but they are good players in their own right.

[JonStark]

14 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

What exactly has Goff accomplished besides holding McVay back from winning a SB in 2018? 

 

This is such a flawed argument. Goff obviously didn't play well in that game (one game sample size btw), but Mcvay got outcoached in that game. Bad. Aside from the defense, it was a team loss and they were still one Brandin Cooks drop away from possibly taking it. Putting that all on Goff, who was still young and way before the age typical pocket passers mature, is just inaccurate. 

[ronjon1990]

13 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Hard to buy into the idea that Goff is responsible for the success of Amon-Ra and LaPorta when we didn't see much of that elevating from Goff between 2019-2021.  Besides, I would lean towards the running game and offensive line being the biggest reason for Goff turning it around, not his WR or TE.  He was at his best in LA when he had Gurley and solid OL.

 

I'm not going to say you're wrong, as I see the logic. 

The only point I'd make in regard to 2019-2021 is this:

Who was he going to elevate and how? 

He was meh in 2019, but the entire offense sans Kupp seemed off. The proven commodities were already proven and guys who weren't memorable never became memorable. 

In 2020, the offense was completely broken due to their lack of a run game. Again, not saying he was great, and the relationship was souring anyway, but most QBs struggle when there's virtually no threat of a running game. 

In 2021, he was in a new system being run early by a bum and relying on unproven players and rookies as pass catchers. Once he heated up and built the chemistry, things took off. 

Seems to me like the Rams breakdown of a running game shares some blame for the downturn, and the Lions rise to offensive power at least partly coincides pretty directly to Goff building confidence in the system and chemistry with young pass catchers. 

What would he have realistically needed to do to change your mind, I guess is my biggest question. 

[ronjon1990]

9 minutes ago, JonStark said:

This is such a flawed argument. Goff obviously didn't play well in that game (one game sample size btw), but Mcvay got outcoached in that game. Bad. Aside from the defense, it was a team loss and they were still one Brandin Cooks drop away from possibly taking it. Putting that all on Goff, who was still young and way before the age typical pocket passers mature, is just inaccurate. 

I've rarely seen so much emphasis put on one single game when evaluating someone's entire career. 

You'd think he pulled a Nathan Peterman debut in that Superbowl. 

Imagine holding a lackluster Superbowl performance vs Bill Belichick and Tom Brady against someone the way some folks do with Goff. 

Meanwhile, everyone stays on Herbert's jock with his 0-1 playoff meltdown record 4 years in. 

[Packerraymond]

Jared Goff is the ultimate "elevated by the team/system around him" style of QB. Guy is just downright bad when you can get home with your rush, watch the Thanksgiving game this year to see a perfect example. The Lions have built a very nice roster around him and have a very strong system for him to succeed in. That OC will take a job elsewhere soon and that contract will keep the Lions from being able to continue to build at the rate they have been. Minimal salary cap space and draft picks in the mid to late 20s for the next few seasons, going to be a lot of pressure on that FO to keep that roster around Goff. Welcome to contending Detroit. 

[HoboRocket]

48 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

I’ve definitely considered the fact that Cooper Kupp never made a Pro Bowl/All Pro until his 2021 season.

I’ve considered that in 16 games (including playoffs) in 2020 Kupp had 1,050 receiving yards and 3 touchdowns with Goff throwing to him. Then in 2021 (including playoffs), in Kupp’s first season without Goff, Kupp had over 2,400 receiving yards and 22 touchdowns. 

So yeah I suppose I have a hard time believing Goff is the one turning Amon-Ra and Laporta into top level weapons. Doesn’t mean Goff isn’t a good QB, but let’s be real here.

Right. Goff distributed the football better than Stafford with the Rams.

Goff was more of a point guard in that offense. And he was excellent at it. When the roster decayed due to his cap hit, he got worse. When he first started with the Rams and had zero NFL WRs on the roster, he was bad. 

Goff is more 2016 Matt Ryan. Matthew Stafford has been more of a funnel guy his whole career who showers one wide receiver tons of looks. Calvin Johnson, Golden Tate, Cooper Kupp, Puka Nacua. And usually when he picks one guy, that's his guy for the game. He hasn't consistently had many people involved in the passing game as regularly as Goff did. But he hasn't really needed to. Stafford can do that weird gumby thing with his arm where he can stare down his WR down and you know who the ball is going to but he'll still beat you with touch that lets him hit the WR anywhere and varies his launch angle. Goff is way more mechanically consistent and doest have that ability so he wins by distributing. 

Goff certainly elevated that WR room. His top three WRs were each averaging 5 receptions and 70+ yards a game the same season, all while Todd Gurley was super productive as a receiver and guys like Higbee, Gerald Everett, and Josh Reynolds were getting involved too. His ability to spread the ball out and be so dang consistent with his passing mechanics meant that as long as you kept him up and gave him two guys to throw to, he could and would outduel anyone. For the most part, whenever Goff screws up, it makes sense.

Stafford functions way better when the play breaks down and can have a solid passing game with basically just one WR, but you also get diminishing returns when you invest around him. And every once in a while you get a "WHAT?!" play where you have no idea what he was doing or he was just way too confident in his ability to beat the defense when they knew what was coming. 

They're on a very similar level as QBs but are very different styles. Stafford was a much better fit for the 2021 Rams than Goff would have been. I think Goff still outplays Stafford if Syafford is on the 2017-19 Rams, though. 

[JonStark]

9 minutes ago, HoboRocket said:

Right. Goff distributed the football better than Stafford with the Rams.

Goff was more of a point guard in that offense. And he was excellent at it. When the roster decayed due to his cap hit, he got worse. When he first started with the Rams and had zero NFL WRs on the roster, he was bad. 

Goff is more 2016 Matt Ryan. Matthew Stafford has been more of a funnel guy his whole career who showers one wide receiver tons of looks. Calvin Johnson, Golden Tate, Cooper Kupp, Puka Nacua. And usually when he picks one guy, that's his guy for the game. He hasn't consistently had many people involved in the passing game as regularly as Goff did. But he hasn't really needed to. Stafford can do that weird gumby thing with his arm where he can stare down his WR down and you know who the ball is going to but he'll still beat you with touch that lets him hit the WR anywhere and varies his launch angle. Goff is way more mechanically consistent and doest have that ability so he wins by distributing. 

Goff certainly elevated that WR room. His top three WRs were each averaging 5 receptions and 70+ yards a game the same season, all while Todd Gurley was super productive as a receiver and guys like Higbee, Gerald Everett, and Josh Reynolds were getting involved too. His ability to spread the ball out and be so dang consistent with his passing mechanics meant that as long as you kept him up and gave him two guys to throw to, he could and would outduel anyone. For the most part, whenever Goff screws up, it makes sense.

Stafford functions way better when the play breaks down and can have a solid passing game with basically just one WR, but you also get diminishing returns when you invest around him. And every once in a while you get a "WHAT?!" play where you have no idea what he was doing or he was just way too confident in his ability to beat the defense when they knew what was coming. 

They're on a very similar level as QBs but are very different styles. Stafford was a much better fit for the 2021 Rams than Goff would have been. I think Goff still outplays Stafford if Syafford is on the 2017-19 Rams, though. 

This is a fantastic breakdown of the two. Well done.

[iknowcool]

8 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

I'm not going to say you're wrong, as I see the logic. 

The only point I'd make in regard to 2019-2021 is this:

Who was he going to elevate and how? 

He was meh in 2019, but the entire offense sans Kupp seemed off. The proven commodities were already proven and guys who weren't memorable never became memorable. 

In 2020, the offense was completely broken due to their lack of a run game. Again, not saying he was great, and the relationship was souring anyway, but most QBs struggle when there's virtually no threat of a running game. 

In 2021, he was in a new system being run early by a bum and relying on unproven players and rookies as pass catchers. Once he heated up and built the chemistry, things took off. 

Seems to me like the Rams breakdown of a running game shares some blame for the downturn, and the Lions rise to offensive power at least partly coincides pretty directly to Goff building confidence in the system and chemistry with young pass catchers. 

What would he have realistically needed to do to change your mind, I guess is my biggest question. 

I'm not saying it is all his fault.  My point is that a QB capable of turning guys into All-Pros wouldn't have struggled for 3 consecutive seasons like Goff did.  

And to make it clear, I don't think that makes Goff a bad QB.  He is a solid QB.  He just isn't a difference maker at the position.  And I don't think it is a stretch to think Goff might fail to live up to second big money deal.  I know there were other things at play in LA and I would agree the Lions are better suited to allow Goff to remain productive going forward... but one could have said the same thing after the Rams paid Goff.  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

[HoboRocket]

3 minutes ago, JonStark said:

This is a fantastic breakdown of the two. Well done.

Unfortunately I've seen a lot of games for both of them.

[General Tso]

18 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

That OC will take a job elsewhere soon

That's been the line for the past 2 offseasons and hasn't happened yet.

[Jameson_Neat]

23 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Jared Goff is the ultimate "elevated by the team/system around him" style of QB. Guy is just downright bad when you can get home with your rush, watch the Thanksgiving game this year to see a perfect example. The Lions have built a very nice roster around him and have a very strong system for him to succeed in. That OC will take a job elsewhere soon and that contract will keep the Lions from being able to continue to build at the rate they have been. Minimal salary cap space and draft picks in the mid to late 20s for the next few seasons, going to be a lot of pressure on that FO to keep that roster around Goff. Welcome to contending Detroit. 

Are you telling me that Goff isn't an elite QB, but can outplay elite QBs in certain circumstances? Why aren't elite QBs outplaying Goff when they're eliteness elevates everything? 

Also, did anyone know who Ben Johnson was before 2022?