Random Packer News & Notes

[ThatJerkDave]

23 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Fun fact, Malik Health's full name is.....  Malik Shazass Heath.  

Just based on that middle name, I'll take him over Allen Jamel Lazard.

I would like to retract my statement about him over Malik Shazass Heath.  Malik Shazass Heath is the fourth best WR of all time, behind the St. Brown brothers.

[Eternal]

5 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

Where was the contested catch advantage?   It was helpful to him as a blocker.  It wasn't helpful to him as a starting WR.   You did not see Mike Evans type plays from him.   Randy Moss type plays.

Lazard was and always will be a good blocker and low-level receiver.   He has his place, just not as the leading threat as a WR in the NFL.   Is that hard to admit?   The proof is in the results.   He has flamed out as a receiving threat.  Mainly because he was too slow, lacked the quickness, and didn't have the type of hands to win contested catches in game.   

I understand that some were fooled by the other "advanced stats" and measurables, but you certainly shouldn't be fooled anymore.  Why we would have this discussion again in 2024 is really surprising.  People can't admit they were wrong even after the results for 3 years prove it?

The stats say otherwise on his speed. Lazard is not slow. You are just labeling him that.

[vegas492]

7 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

Where was the contested catch advantage?   It was helpful to him as a blocker.  It wasn't helpful to him as a starting WR.   You did not see Mike Evans type plays from him.   Randy Moss type plays.

Lazard was and always will be a good blocker and low-level receiver.   He has his place, just not as the leading threat as a WR in the NFL.   Is that hard to admit?   The proof is in the results.   He has flamed out as a receiving threat.  Mainly because he was too slow, lacked the quickness, and didn't have the type of hands to win contested catches in game.   

I understand that some were fooled by the other "advanced stats" and measurables, but you certainly shouldn't be fooled anymore.  Why we would have this discussion again in 2024 is really surprising.  People can't admit they were wrong even after the results for 3 years prove it?

No dog in this fight.  Just curious.

You have to pay $12M for one of these receivers.  Who do you take?  Lazard or MVS?

To me, that is a really tough one.  Rodgers made both look better than I feel they really are.

[Eternal]

1 minute ago, ThatJerkDave said:

I would like to retract my statement about him over Malik Shazass Heath.  Malik Shazass Heath is the fourth best WR of all time, behind the St. Brown brothers.

I wonder how you pronounce his middle name? Shaz ***?

[Rainmaker90]

As I said, overrated. Allen Lazard does not deserve this much talk. 

[ThatJerkDave]

2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

There we go again with exaggeration, no one on this board once mentioned Mike Evans as a comp, as now two posters above have used, as statement that invalidates your entire argument. I remember the debates very well, everyone pro Lazard was happy he was going to see more opportunities in 2022, because the analytics pointed to him deserving them. Simple as that.

HE produced an average WR season, with a QB that went into a shell and refused to throw anything over the middle of the field or contested. 

 

I compared him to Drake London when some people wanted to draft Drake London in the first round.  I believe that is the loftiest comparison anyone here has ever made.  And that was really me saying that I don't want to take Drake London in the first round.  

[Packerraymond]

Just now, vegas492 said:

No dog in this fight.  Just curious.

You have to pay $12M for one of these receivers.  Who do you take?  Lazard or MVS?

To me, that is a really tough one.  Rodgers made both look better than I feel they really are.

Lazard can run the full tree and block at an elite level for you. Pretty simple to me.

MVS never clicked with Mahomes, couldn't tell you why. He never refined the technical side of being a WR, even with Rodgers, but the two of them connected enough vertically to make him a valuable player for us. I think Rodgers rode MVS much harder and he needed that constant push to be as sharp as he could, Mahomes seems like a much more chill dude and MVS has suffered in the technical aspects of being a WR with him as QB. Mentally MVS just never had it to be a complete WR. 

[vegas492]

1 minute ago, Eternal said:

The stats say otherwise on his speed. Lazard is not slow. You are just labeling him that.

Was the guy ever really caught from behind?  I remember his younger playing days...he caught a few deep ones and the long speed was just fine.

Certainly he didn't have instant speed or quickness, but I don't recall long speed being a detriment to him.  And I do remember some great deep, sideline, catches when that large frame really helped him out.

He was a fine Packer and a good one to not overpay for.  

[Mazrimiv]

1 minute ago, vegas492 said:

No dog in this fight.  Just curious.

You have to pay $12M for one of these receivers.  Who do you take?  Lazard or MVS?

To me, that is a really tough one.  Rodgers made both look better than I feel they really are.

Just leaving the 12M out of it since there is no scenario where paying either one 12M makes sense.

That being said, it would depend entirely on what the rest of the WR room looked like.  If speed was needed to add a vertical threat to the offense, MVS is the guy.  If you already have speed, but need a possession/bully type, then Lazard would be a better option.

[vegas492]

3 minutes ago, Eternal said:

I wonder how you pronounce his middle name? Shaz ***?

Who cares!  I'm going to pronounce it exactly as I want!  And it is glorious.  

I recommend, highly, that @Packerraymond name his second child Shazass.  

[skibrett15]

To me, Lazard, MVS (outpost's best rookie WR numbers ever surefire star!), late career Jordy Nelson, Jennings, mid career James Jones are all case studies for our future FA WRs.

 

If they are older, they are not worth retaining.  If they are younger, like Lazard/MVS, are they really a difference maker, or are they just in a large role here!?

In the case of both Lazard and MVS they were playing a lot and had large roles on the team, but that was a byproduct of a few things:

1) Good QB/OL play inflating their numbers

2) Good offensive design from good coaching

3) Bad/shallow WR rooms with little to no competition.

 

The players that lazard and MVS were competing with -> ESB, J'Mon Moore, Malichi Dupre, Deangelo Yancey, Randall Cobb's corpse, Juwan Winfree, Malik Taylor

The players that late career James Jones was competing with -> Trevor Davis, Geronimo Allison, Jarrett Boykin, Jeremy Ross, Myles White

 

These players are all essentially out of the league as soon as they are not on GB.  Is it any surprise that the lack of talent extended one rung further up to MVS/James Jones/Lazard?

[Packerraymond]

1 minute ago, skibrett15 said:

To me, Lazard, MVS (outpost's best rookie WR numbers ever surefire star!), late career Jordy Nelson, Jennings, mid career James Jones are all case studies for our future FA WRs.

 

If they are older, they are not worth retaining.  If they are younger, like Lazard/MVS, are they really a difference maker, or are they just in a large role here!?

In the case of both Lazard and MVS they were playing a lot and had large roles on the team, but that was a byproduct of a few things:

1) Good QB/OL play inflating their numbers

2) Good offensive design from good coaching

3) Bad/shallow WR rooms with little to no competition.

 

The players that lazard and MVS were competing with -> ESB, J'Mon Moore, Malichi Dupre, Deangelo Yancey, Randall Cobb's corpse, Juwan Winfree, Malik Taylor

The players that late career James Jones was competing with -> Trevor Davis, Geronimo Allison, Jarrett Boykin, Jeremy Ross, Myles White

 

These players are all essentially out of the league as soon as they are not on GB.  Is it any surprise that the lack of talent extended one rung further up to MVS/James Jones/Lazard?

So what's your point? Not worth paying them big? Don't think anyone on this board would argue that. Don't remember anyone saying we would regret not paying JJ, Lazard or MVS what they got. 

In general mid-level WR play is right there with RB, ILB and IOL as easily replaced by a rookie deal. We definitely have the right mindset as a FO as to not paying out those positions unless there's something elite there. 

[Mazrimiv]

25 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

There we go again with exaggeration, no one on this board once mentioned Mike Evans as a comp, as now two posters above have used

Now I wonder if anyone ever did.  This board is home to some pretty wild takes, but can't say I remember anyone claiming Lazard/Evans was a valid comp.  I guess they are both tall?

[ThatJerkDave]

2 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

No dog in this fight.  Just curious.

You have to pay $12M for one of these receivers.  Who do you take?  Lazard or MVS?

To me, that is a really tough one.  Rodgers made both look better than I feel they really are.

It depends on the rest of my WR room.

 

Current Packers?  Lazard.  We already have 3 guys (Watson, Reed, Melton) that can replicate MVS's speed threat, though only one of them brings his size.  Lazard is a better possession receiver and goon than MVS, though MVS is also a pretty good goon.  

[skibrett15]

13 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

So what's your point? Not worth paying them big? Don't think anyone on this board would argue that. Don't remember anyone saying we would regret not paying JJ, Lazard or MVS what they got. 

In general mid-level WR play is right there with RB, ILB and IOL as easily replaced by a rookie deal. We definitely have the right mindset as a FO as to not paying out those positions unless there's something elite there. 

My point is the players behind adams/jordy are pretty bad and that just because they are on the roster and putting up decent numbers doesn't make them good players or even necessarily  average players.  We've not come close to the jennings/jordy or jordy/adams teams since Jordy left the building.  Mayyybe we have something with Reed/Watson cooking but Watson is a huge ??? right now.

3 minutes ago, Mazrimiv said:

Now I wonder if anyone ever did.  This board is home to some pretty wild takes, but can't say I remember anyone claiming Lazard/Evans was a valid comp.  I guess they are both tall?