The Future of This Franchise (Coaching Staff Debate)

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, jebrick said:

They will NOT bring in a OC that will change the system.  Ben does not have that time.  At best Fletcher is promoted.

Haley and Childress both run WCO concepts with WCO language.  It wouldn't be a complete system overhall.

[Alex]

Don't be surprised to see Munchak getting promoted too, I do see him being a team player and could allows Fitcher to be an offensive assistant who make calls. Some teams have done this.

 

Honestly, my #1 concern and for past few years isn't the personnel or coaching, it's the dissonance of identity. 

 

Who ARE we on the defense? Butler hasn't been able to establish that and we don't have personnel for LeBeau's 3-4. Are we trying to be a hybrid 3-4 defense or what? Who makes the call? 

 

It's why much as I like Hargrave, he's a misfit for this defense. When we signed Haden I saw it coming; Burn was going to struggle mainly due to misfit. We reverts back and forth between scheme's and zones. We can't do that, we got to stop get cute with this.

 

Tomlin has to decide what's the best for the defense, establish the defense and when he does he'll have to decide whether those defensive coordinators can help or not. If not, let them go. Worry about the coaching aspects first, not development.

 

Shazier and our defense proved one thing; an upgrade at linebacker position WAS not going to get it fixed. 

 

If it was up to me, I'd look at a free safety or nose tackle for the upgrade.

[MOSteelers56]

I think drafting another all around DT is a low key great improvement for our defense. I think we struggle to stop the run because we’re a 4-3 team shoehorned into a 3-4. Everyone of our front seven guys could survive and thrive in a 4-3. 

[VigilantZombie]

You know what I don't know why I didn't think about the possibility of Mike Munchak getting promoted but I'm curious if maybe that's that's the right decision because Mike Munchak is a guy that's known at least he seemed to be when he was in Tennessee for allowing the quarterback to do some of his own stuff on the field I think you'll loosen the reins a lot more than Haley seemed to do and of course this is all based on the assumption that Haley was making the majority of the play calls because obviously I have no way to really know that. But there is no denying that Mike Munchak made our offense of line better and as the offense of coordinator he could continue to do so while emphasizing the running game and allowing been to control the passing game on the field. I actually would love that move personally

[JLambert58]

Mularkey just got fired by Tennessee.  Probably won't happen, but an interesting thought to bring him back as OC.

[grubs10]

14 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Haley and Lake need to go for sure. Probably Porter too. 

I thought Lake was going to be really good. I can’t remember if it was the flash that Cortez Allen had or getting something average out of Cockrell but I thought he was a miracle worker. He has proven that wrong for years now. We have too much talent in our secondary to waste. Bring in a good coach and maybe salvage Burns and develop Sutton, Hilton, and Allen. That’s a potentially good unit of corners. Somehow acquire a ballhawk FS and ditch Mitchell. A fixed secondary would really help and Lake isn’t the handyman I thought he was.

It was turning Keenan Lewis into a a good starter and the flashes from Cortez Allen.  I remember thinking finally we had a coach to turn the secondary around....

I really hope Artie Burns is mature enough to cling to Joe Haden and soak up as much as he can from him this offseason.

[3rivers]

Stepnen A smith not happy

 

 

[CKSteeler]

Nearly every big decision Tomlin made over the last month was wrong. And painfully so. Worse yet, their plan for the defense ultimately failed. Someone above mentioned identity. The team lacks it on both sides.

But I think years of defensive suck have actually started to make Steelers fans immune to it. 45 points against Jacksonville. Even without the two turnovers, it's 31 points allowed to this Jacksonville offense. You can argue this isn't the sort of offense they were planning to stop. They wanted to beat Tom Brady. But who thinks the defense would have done much better in that scenario, either? There's hope on defense. There's a lot of young guys in the secondary. But they need to do some soul searching and figure out the best way to develop who they have because what they were doing this year wasn't going to hack it. They sucked against the run and weren't good enough against the pass, either.

Let me reiterate - if this defense was designed to stop NE, it failed at that and would have failed even worse the second go around, I suspect.

The Steelers, at home in January to Jacksonville, allowed 45 points to Blake Bortles. Something has to give. They need to use the resources they have this off-season the best they can. They can't wait until opening-day-eve to make moves to improve the roster with veterans. And that may mean making some tough decisions and casting aside some overpriced guys or players who just want too much.

@warfelg

Outside  Tony Romo of all people calling his shot in a setting most people wouldn't care about (something he didn't repeat as far as I'm aware of, and which didn't call out a specific opponent), those quotes you provided are not the same as a coach midseason looking weeks ahead to a particular opponent and talking about not just that game, but a playoff rematch that would only happen after both teams had won games.

You aren't denying what was said. You are pretending it didn't have the impact it did on his own team and that it wasn't perceived as a slight by opponents when it clearly was. Especially when certain morons on the team took it as carte blanche to run their mouths over the course of weeks.

[warfelg]

12 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

You are pretending it didn't have the impact it did on his own team and that it wasn't perceived as a slight by opponents when it clearly was. 

So what.  Again I would be more disturbed if he said he doesn't think we can win it.  Do you think Bill Belechick isn't saying it?  Or Pederson?  Or Zimmer?  Again, I think this is some of the 'only pay attention' to the Steelers thing.  All these coaches say it and think it.  I 100% guarantee any good coach will say it if pressed.  

You if are going to fire a coach because he says "We can win it. We should win it" the find another team.  I want a coach who talks like that.  I'm not mad he said it.  I'm embarrassed that the players on the field couldn't make a damn play.  Williams whiffing on coverage is a bigger problem than Tomlin saying "We can win it."  Mike Mitchell running his damn mouth is a bigger problem than Tomlin saying "We should win it."  Sean Spence commenting on miscommunication is a bigger problem than Tomlin saying "We have the talent to win it" (said before the Shazier injury FWIW).

 HELL MIKE MITCHELL SKIPPING OUT ON EXIT INTERVIEW AND EXIT MEDIA AVAILABILITY YESTERDAY AND TODAY IS A BIGGER PROBLEM THAN ANYTHING TOMLIN SAID!

 But no, Tomlin having faith in his team, using the media to pump up and praise his team is a bigger deal than any of that.

[CKSteeler]

6 minutes ago, warfelg said:

 

 But no, Tomlin having faith in his team, using the media to pump up and praise his team is a bigger deal than any of that.

If there's one thing this incarnation of the Steelers have lacked, it's confidence. I mean, guys who never won playoff games before were talking about championships a few years ago.

Just think, if not for Andy Reid and Marvin Lewis, the Steelers may not have a playoff win since 2010. The team that thought it was ready for Brady was too scared it couldn't stop Blake Bortles on third down so it ran it an onside kick.

8 minutes ago, warfelg said:

You if are going to fire a coach because he says "We can win it. We should win it" the find another team

This is a complete and utter strawman and you know it. Tomlin is getting killed in the media, both local and national, for his comments and looking ahead publicly.  You refuse to even acknowledge there was anything out of the norm with what he said. No one would be trashing Tomlin if he said what he says every year that they're playing for a championship. He did in fact say it all off-season and no one cared. His comments in that Dungy interview are fundamentally different.

9 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Williams whiffing on coverage is a bigger problem than Tomlin saying "We can win it."

At what point can I stop blaming players on the field and start looking at the coaches when every single week they blow one assignment after another? The excuses are ridiculous. This was a Super Bowl hopeful team whose secondary, despite all this 'simplification,' can't manage to play a single game without blowing multiple coverages.

 

11 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Mike Mitchell running his damn mouth is a bigger problem than Tomlin saying "We should win it."

Who brought Mitchell here? Who praised Mitchell? Who has defended Mitchell not just for his play, but for his supposed leadership repeatedly? Who failed to put a lid on him over the course of weeks? Frankly, years?

12 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Sean Spence commenting on miscommunication is a bigger problem than Tomlin saying "We have the talent to win it" (said before the Shazier injury FWIW).

Why are we singling out Spence for the excuse the defense has used all season long? If it wasn't Tomlin saying it, it was one of his players.

Remember - NO ONE was going to out talent this team!

[CKSteeler]

I mean, if we're being blunt, the best move this team could make is to unload Tomlin for some draft picks while his reputation is still mostly intact. Because he's basically a glorified Marvin Lewis in a better organization and with a better QB. I know it won't happen, but I also know Tomlin isn't going to fire or change both of his coordinators willingly.

I mean, we're stuck hoping that Art II is so annoyed by all of this he forces changes on Tomlin. So you are sitting here talking about how you'd fire Butler and this or that coach (Porter is widely recognized as Tomlin's buddy on the staff) and Tomlin wouldn't do it if left to his own devices. In 2004, Art II fired a shot across Bill Cowher's brow. The same needs to be done here with Tomlin. At a minimum. After all his talk this year especially.

[CKSteeler]

Going for a triple post and don't care. I'm also frankly of tired of hearing how you can't compare the Steelers to New England! Even when it's on something as simple as not saying dumb **** before playoff games, we just can't compare the two franchises! You're just a spoiled Steelers fan if you expect them to at least be a road bump for Belichick and Brady despite having a franchise, future HOF QB who just threw 5 (basically) 6 TD's yesterday. And let me reemphasize that point - the Steelers haven't even been a speed bump. They've only even managed to run into the Patriots once in the playoffs because they haven't even been a serious contender since 2010. The last two years were as close as they actually came, and they looked as bad as the Colts against NE last year and this year couldn't even get there despite all the stupid talk.

This is supposed to be one of the NFL's top franchises, and I have people telling me that if I expect more than a wild card appearance, I'm just spoiled.

What value does Tomlin add to this team? He's the head guy, and the answer is next to nothing that some other schmuck couldn't add in the Steelers organization. Bill Cowher - a man most fans wanted fired at some point - is frankly twice the coach Tomlin is. I don't know what it is. Tomlin won too much too fast and got cocky. Never had to learn. Maybe he just always would have been mediocre. But the guy needs to be gone. He's not the one to lead this team post-Ben, so why would anyone think he's actually the best guy to do it with him?

Some posters whose defenses of Tomlin years ago were far more confident are now forced to comparing him to Alex Smith. I mean, it's like sure I keep losing ground every year, but I'm still not going to admit I'm wrong completely...

I know Tomlin's record. I know how it stacks up historically. I also know that he's blessed in ways few coaches are (same with McCarthy in GB). I frankly don't even think he adds as much value as Andy Reid does to a team. I don't know if he could go somewhere else and even manage to collect the talent Jeff Fischer managed to in St. Louis. How many extra wins per year has he brought to this team over the years? Everyone else wants to focus on how many losing seasons does he have or how much worse it could (because the Steelers can't hire someone better than Norv Turner, apparently who still, by the way, got the Chargers farther than Marty Schottenheimer ever would have) have been.

[warfelg]

And who’s the coach that would have won all this stuff we missed out on? I would love to know who it is. 

[warfelg]

Tomling brough Fichtner from the booth to sidelines as a buffer between Haley and Ben; right about the time Ben turned things around. 

 

Never seen even a single thing said about Tomlin making a good move with that. 

[CKSteeler]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Tomling brough Fichtner from the booth to sidelines as a buffer between Haley and Ben; right about the time Ben turned things around.

Because a head coach doesn't deserve praise for having to create a buffer between his offensive coordinator and QB. Does he have the power to fire and hire coordinators? Probably not in the technical sense. But a lot of coaches, the majority, actually don't. It's an ownership decision. If Tomlin wanted to force that issue, he could have. And if you are at the point where you are creating a buffer between the QB and OC, you probably should have done that well before. Cowher went to battle with the Rooney's and his GM's behind the scenes multiple times in power struggles. He won them all, by the way.

So what is Tomlin scared of? He'd have a job in 10 minutes if he were fired. Why the hesitation? I guess he's just too loyal, even though he has had two long time coordinators who won rings with him fired from underneath his nose.

For all of Tomlin's talk, I don't see a confident coach anymore. I don't see a hungry coach, either. I see a coach who is more or less happy to be there and who is out of real ideas.

Quote

And who’s the coach that would have won all this stuff we missed out on? I would love to know who it is. 

It's a dumb question that assumes coaching is some black and white issue. It implies that you are a good coach or you aren't even though you are leading a roster of 53 men with constant churn over and different moving parts. Tomlin isn't anywhere as good as his record indicates. In any given year another coach could have done better. In some years, another would have been worse. You keep Tomlin if you think he's the guy who will keep you consistently competitive no matter what. If he's not that guy, then the question becomes what is he adding right now.

Who really think Tomlin will keep this team consistently competitive without his QB? He's had 5 years to rebuild the defense, and he's failed to do it.

As I've said already on this site, Cowher rebuilt the defense three times. It doesn't take half a decade to do it. Not then and not now. Hiring a coach isn't the same as getting married.

There are a number of coaches who I think are objectively better than Tomlin, but I'm not going to get bogged down into an argument on each specific one. There are many coaches who, even if for a short while, could provide something that Tomlin doesn't. Something the team needs to get over the current hump. There are coaches who could take this roster and fix its flaws in a way that Tomlin probably never will. Sometimes, you just need a course correction. Finding a head coach isn't the same as finding a wife.

Who the hell was Mike Tomlin when they hired him? No one. Who is Mike Tomlin if he gets a job elsewhere? Probably no one. Amazingly, the question isn't clear cut.

I think right now this team needs a guy who doesn't view press conferences as his primary function. One who hasn't basically implemented the equivalent of a 5 year plan to rebuild the defense and failed.