Knockin' on Valhalla's Door

[SemperFeist]

It’s nice to see Daniel Carlson make a game winner against Green Bay 🙄 

[Krauser]

2 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

It’s nice to see Daniel Carlson make a game winner against Green Bay 🙄 

So stupid they gave up and released him instead of coaching him up. 

[SemperFeist]

33 minutes ago, Krauser said:

So stupid they gave up and released him instead of coaching him up. 

I don’t think Priefer was capable of coaching up a young kicker, and Zimmer’s distain for the position has been its biggest downfall, IMO.

Hopefully with the new ST Coordinator, and the hiring of Nate Keading as a kicking coach, we see a better approach towards the position. 

[Cearbhall]

38 minutes ago, Krauser said:

So stupid they gave up and released him instead of coaching him up. 

I think it is understandable given they were thinking at the time they could make a run, he had been shaky in preseason and earlier in the season, he just missed three FGs against Green Bay, and their was a kicker available that they felt was a premium kicker.  I completely understand making the move. You can't let sunk cost have sway over making what looked to be the best decision for the team last year and the future. Dan Bailey was the second most accurate kicker in the league before his time with the Vikings.

On the flip side, the team didn't act fast enough when they had a chance to sign Robbie Gould off the market.  They likely didn't want to repeat that mistake.

[swede700]

41 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I think it is understandable given they were thinking at the time they could make a run, he had been shaky in preseason and earlier in the season, he just missed three FGs against Green Bay, and their was a kicker available that they felt was a premium kicker.  I completely understand making the move. You can't let sunk cost have sway over making what looked to be the best decision for the team last year and the future. Dan Bailey was the second most accurate kicker in the league before his time with the Vikings.

On the flip side, the team didn't act fast enough when they had a chance to sign Robbie Gould off the market.  They likely didn't want to repeat that mistake.

I can see it both ways, but I tend to lean towards @Krauser's opinion.  I thought at the time it was a mistake to let him go...and even moreso now considering Wile's history of poor holding.  You don't invest a pick in a kicker and then let him go that quickly.  I think Zimmer just felt burned by Walsh because he felt he held onto him too long after that playoff miss and he didn't want to possibly repeat that situation with Carlson.  Either way, I believe he reacted way too quickly.  

[vikingsrule]

I was fine letting Carlson go for Bailey. Wasn't a surprise move and sometimes players just do better in different situations. The Vikes were thought of as a playoff team, the Raiders were in a transition. Each kick meant a lot more for the Vikings than the Raiders, especially early on against a division rival on the road.

Whats bizarre though is the fact that MN liked Carlson enough to draft him as early as round 5 and didn't think enough of him to stick with him. Either the Vikes jumped on the opportunity to add a player of Baileys perceived caliber or they thought Carlson was too far gone mentally to contribute this year after the Gb disaster.

[Krauser]

4 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

Dan Bailey was the second most accurate kicker in the league before his time with the Vikings.

Bailey was only on the market because the Cowboys released him, and they released him because his accuracy fell off a cliff after he returned from injury in 2017. There was no reason to expect him to continue to be the second most accurate kicker in the league. 

1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

Either the Vikes jumped on the opportunity to add a player of Baileys perceived caliber

That would be a misperception, even at the time.

1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

or they thought Carlson was too far gone mentally to contribute this year

That seemed unlikely to me at the time, and his performance for the rest of the year proved otherwise -- he was nearly flawless for the Raiders. 

1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

after the Gb disaster.

Only the 3rd kick was a disaster, and I'd put that in part on the coaches.

The first two kicks Carlson missed were from nearly 50 yards (48, 49) in a stadium where long kicks have historically been difficult. Over the past 10 years, visiting kickers are 12/28 from 48+ yards at Lambeau: http://pfref.com/tiny/RlREc -- that's 42%. 

The third kick was a terrible miss, and an NFL kicker should definitely have made it. 

Instead of getting mad that he’d missed 2 fairly difficult kicks (again, visiting NFL kickers over the last 10 years are 42% from 48+ yards at Lambeau) earlier in the game, the coaches should’ve been talking Carlson up in overtime so he didn’t miss the much easier 3rd one. Instead they left him sitting there on the bench, stewing in his own head, and that led to him missing a kick that cost the team a win, and eventually a playoff berth.

I think that miss came down to poor coaching, more than any flaw in Carlson’s character. With time and experience, and in a better situation, I think Carlson would have been able to do better. The fact that he played well for the Raiders last year is a very good sign going forward.

Carlson later identified a flaw in his kicking technique and addressed that before signing with the Raiders. The Vikings hadn't spotted that. They didn't have anyone working on his technique. 

If the team had managed to get Carlson to the level of performance he reached in Oakland, they would’ve had a better kicker last year, and would be in great shape going forward, with one of the better kickers in the league on a rookie deal for 3 more years.They wouldn't have had to invest another pick in Vedvik either. 

Any comparable rebound in performance from a Vikings drafted player who’d struggled but then left and succeeded elsewhere (say, Patterson had become a WR1 after leaving the Vikings, or Hodges had been one of the better LBs in the league after being traded to the Niners) would be rightly considered a mistake by the Vikings in terms of player selection and development. Carlson should be no different.

I think he’ll have a good career. It’s a shame the Vikings wasted their investment in him.

[vike daddy]

22 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Carlson later identified a flaw in his kicking technique and addressed that before signing with the Raiders. The Vikings hadn't spotted that. They didn't have anyone working on his technique. 

that bothers me tremendously. but... we move on.

[SemperFeist]

24 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Carlson later identified a flaw in his kicking technique and addressed that before signing with the Raiders. The Vikings hadn't spotted that. They didn't have anyone working on his technique. 

I do wonder if that wasn’t a significant reason that the Vikings and Mike Priefer went separate ways. 

[swede700]

2 minutes ago, vike daddy said:

that bothers me tremendously. but... we move on.

Others have stated the problem before,  but I think we're beginning to understand what the real problem was...

Quote

It’s no secret that head coach Freddie Kitchens has grown frustrated with the Cleveland Browns kicking situation.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2019/08/20/cleveland-browns-3-kickers-target-via-trade/

[Krauser]

2 minutes ago, vike daddy said:

that bothers me tremendously. but... we move on.

Do we?

We still don't have the kicking position figured out. They traded for Vedvik apparently without a clear plan for how he'd be used. 

Meanwhile Carlson might be in the league for 10 more years. I just watched him go 3/3 against the Packers including a last second game winner. He hit his last 30 kicks in a row last year and he's now 11/11 this preseason including XPs. I didn't want them to trade up to draft him, but once they did, they should've gotten full value.

Instead, they gave him away for nothing. And now they've sunk another pick into the position, and it's still not clear if they're any better off.

[vike daddy]

8 hours ago, Krauser said:

Do we?

We still don't have the kicking position figured out. They traded for Vedvik apparently without a clear plan for how he'd be used. 

Meanwhile Carlson might be in the league for 10 more years. I just watched him go 3/3 against the Packers including a last second game winner. He hit his last 30 kicks in a row last year and he's now 11/11 this preseason including XPs. I didn't want them to trade up to draft him, but once they did, they should've gotten full value.

Instead, they gave him away for nothing. And now they've sunk another pick into the position, and it's still not clear if they're any better off.

i meant more that as fans we move on from it, and go with the hand we have. or foot.

i'm not arguing that Carlson was properly treated and developed, only that it's the past.

[vike daddy]

The latest Cam Newton injury shines a bright light on a trio of backup options who may not currently be ready for prime time. Behind Newton on the Carolina depth chart are Kyle Allen, rookie Will Grier, and Taylor Heinicke. So if Newton ends up missing time with a foot/ankle injury, what should the Panthers do?

How about Teddy Bridgewater? The Saints backup possibly is sliding behind Taysom Hill, and Bridgewater has a history with Panthers offensive coordinator Norv Turner, who served in that same role during Bridgewater’s first two seasons in Minnesota.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/23/if-cam-newton-misses-time-what-should-the-panthers-do-at-quarterback/

Edited August 24, 2019 by vike daddy

[vikingsrule]

Is Teddy really falling behind Hill? Haven't been following too closely but that doesn't speak well for Teddy at all. Always thought Hill was mostly a gadget player.

[SteelKing728]

Can't wait for week 1.