How does this SB effect Tom Brady's status of all time?

[Carmen Cygni]

Just now, Starless said:

Uh, no. Amendola wasn't open. Bradham was pretty clearly playing the hook zone and sitting on his route.

Nah, dude. Bradham was briefly influenced by the #2's vertical and the hook zone was clear when he cut in. The Patriots complete those kinds of passes all the time.

You're boy ****ed up.

[lancerman]

8 minutes ago, Starless said:

Uh, no. Amendola wasn't open. Bradham was pretty clearly playing the hook zone and sitting on his route.

Not worth arguing with him. He doesn’t know how to accept when he’s wrong. See: defense wins championships thread

[Carmen Cygni]

Fan boys and their fatheads.

 

[dtait93]

[Apparition]

5 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Nah, dude. Bradham was briefly influenced by the #2's vertical and the hook zone was clear when he cut in. The Patriots complete those kinds of passes all the time.

You're boy ****ed up.

Again, wrong. For one thing, Amendola wasn't Brady's primary read on the play, so even if Amendola had been open for a split second, Brady still had his eyes on Gronk down the seam because his pre-snap read told him that was going to be the best available option. For another, there really wasn't an opening there for any kind of gain because there were two linebackers (not just Bradham) who would've been there to stop Amendola for a minimal gain if he'd even chanced that throw, which was unwise because there just wasn't enough of a window to realistically complete it.

[Carmen Cygni]

20 minutes ago, Starless said:

Again, wrong. For one thing, Amendola wasn't Brady's primary read on the play, so even if Amendola had been open for a split second, Brady still had his eyes on Gronk down the seam because his pre-snap read told him that was going to be the best available option. For another, there really wasn't an opening there for any kind of gain because there were two linebackers (not just Bradham) who would've been there to stop Amendola for a minimal gain if he'd even chanced that throw, which was unwise because there just wasn't enough of a window to realistically complete it.

Prove it. And I'm not saying Amendola was or was not his primary read, but I want to see you squirm try and explain presnap reads and progressions. Please humor me.

Also, that minimal gain was still a 1st down to Amendola.

Awesome that you're trying to argue for what you consider the GOAT QB of all time, but claim he can't make a throw to a 5 yard dig over the middle, and underneath & b/w zone coverage. Classic case of blinders and bias by a fan who refuses to look outside his own team's box.

[childofpudding]

1 hour ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Prove it. And I'm not saying Amendola was or was not his primary read, but I want to see you squirm try and explain presnap reads and progressions. Please humor me.

Also, that minimal gain was still a 1st down to Amendola.

Awesome that you're trying to argue for what you consider the GOAT QB of all time, but claim he can't make a throw to a 5 yard dig over the middle, and underneath & b/w zone coverage. Classic case of blinders and bias by a fan who refuses to look outside his own team's box.

Here's my take on it. Hogan ran motion left to right. No one went with him, so Brady read zone. Which it was, Cover 4, which is basically the same coverage they ran on 1st down. I think Brady thought the LB and two safeties would stay put to jump the short routes because it was 2nd and short, and that the hole in the zone would be between them and the DBs, so he'd have Gronk and/or Hogan open. Instead the LB/Ss dropped back, closing that expected hole, and Brady wasn't able to adjust quickly enough to dump it to White in the flat. The average time-to-sack is something like 4 seconds, and that was 2.8 seconds. You can definitely place some blame on Brady there, but the strip sack was largely on Mason.

I don't think it's being a fanboy to point out that Brady throwing for 500 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs - and the offense scoring 33 points (should have been 37 points if not for ST miscues) against the #4 defense by points allowed (#5 by DVOA but essentially tied with ARI for 4th) that gave up 17 points combined in their previous two playoff games - means that game, at the very least, didn't change his reputation as one of the GOAT QBs.

If anyone's reputation should be affected by that game, it would be that of your idol Bill Belichick (who I still think is one of the GOAT coaches FWIW).

[mission27]

8 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

Here's my take on it. Hogan ran motion left to right. No one went with him, so Brady read zone. Which it was, Cover 4, which is basically the same coverage they ran on 1st down. I think Brady thought the LB and two safeties would stay put to jump the short routes because it was 2nd and short, and that the hole in the zone would be between them and the DBs, so he'd have Gronk and/or Hogan open. Instead the LBs dropped back, closing that expected hole, and Brady wasn't able to adjust quickly enough to dump it to White in the flat. The average time-to-sack is something like 4 seconds, and that was 2.7 seconds. You can definitely place some blame on Brady there, but the strip sack was largely on Mason.

I don't think it's being a fanboy to point out that Brady throwing for 500 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs - and the offense scoring 33 points (should have been 37 points if not for ST miscues) against the #4 defense that gave up 17 points combined in their previous two playoff games - means that game, at the very least, didn't change his reputation as one of the GOAT QBs.

Couldn't agree more.  Eagles called a great play and execute, Shaq Mason **** the bed, and there wasn't much Brady could've done in 2.7 seconds to react.  He was super human all day.  On that play, it wasn't enough.  Doesn't make him responsible in any way for the loss.

[Carmen Cygni]

1 hour ago, childofpudding said:

Here's my take on it. Hogan ran motion left to right. No one went with him, so Brady read zone. Which it was, Cover 4, which is basically the same coverage they ran on 1st down. I think Brady thought the LB and two safeties would stay put to jump the short routes because it was 2nd and short, and that the hole in the zone would be between them and the DBs, so he'd have Gronk and/or Hogan open. Instead the LB/Ss dropped back, closing that expected hole, and Brady wasn't able to adjust quickly enough to dump it to White in the flat. The average time-to-sack is something like 4 seconds, and that was 2.8 seconds. You can definitely place some blame on Brady there, but the strip sack was largely on Mason.

I don't think it's being a fanboy to point out that Brady throwing for 500 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs - and the offense scoring 33 points (should have been 37 points if not for ST miscues) against the #4 defense that gave up 17 points combined in their previous two playoff games - means that game, at the very least, didn't change his reputation as one of the GOAT QBs.

If anyone's reputation should be affected by that game, it would be that of your idol Bill Belichick (who I still think is one of the GOAT coaches FWIW).

Close. It was quarters coverage out of their rover Dime personnel package and the difference is pattern match reads by the secondary as opposed to strictly zoning into the deep 1/4's of the field. The perimeter CBs are man on #1, and the two safeties are reading #2 to #1, and only take #2 on verticals which allows them to also help on #1 if available. The inside slot CBs have flat responsibilities and Mike walls off anything that comes over the middle underneath. This is where the Patriots could have taken advantage of the coverage -  the Mike vs the dig.

It's a 2x2 and an 11 Gun Rt Doubles formation with scat protection vs Rover Dime Quarters. As the strongside slot widens to the flat vs the RB's slip route, the Mike (instead of bailing straight back) also widens to the strongside in respect to the #2's vertical stem to wall any possible in-breaking route by him. When he (Mike) does that, he abandons his primary responsibility of defending any underneath in breaking route from the backside - which was Amendola - on a critical short yardage situation (2&2).

Watch this clip very closely:

You can plainly see that QB's 3 step hitch is timed with the weakside #2's break on his 5 yard dig. As the QB's back foot hits, #2 breaks in, and upon his hitch step the ball should be thrown, as the Mike is still in a backpedal, and that #2 (Amendola) is wide open past the sticks. The ball could have and should have been immediately thrown then instead of waiting for the longer strongside routes (#1 post, #2 Dag) to develop and neither of which were timed up with the 3 step hitch. Brady was trying to do too much when the chain mover as right in front of him down the middle. It's that extra hitch he adds that allows the strip sack to happen.

[Carmen Cygni]

3 hours ago, Starless said:

A valid criticism if you can actually show what Brady could've done to avoid fumbling.

 

I won't hold my breath.

There's a vaild breakdown for you above this post. Welcome to CC's X's & O's @lancerman @mission27

[Wolverine_Joe]

On 2/7/2018 at 4:13 PM, LaserFocus said:

Losing a third Super Bowl as a favorite can't possibly help in the context of GOAT. The soft AFC East has definitely helped the Patriots, and sports isn't about reaching the title game. Brady just wasn't as accurate as he's usually been, and that fumble late was uncharacteristic of his postseason career. He's still a top five QB, but this loss stings.

when you are already the GOAT, it doesn't matter what really happens afterwards.  you don't lose the GOAT title.  somebody has to earn it.  somebody has to out brady it.  until then brady is still the GOAT.

 

 

 

[mission27]

39 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Close. It was quarters coverage out of their rover Dime personnel package and the difference is pattern match reads by the secondary as opposed to strictly zoning into the deep 1/4's of the field. The perimeter CBs are man on #1, and the two safeties are reading #2 to #1, and only take #2 on verticals which allows them to also help on #1 if available. The inside slot CBs have flat responsibilities and Mike walls off anything that comes over the middle underneath. This is where the Patriots could have taken advantage of the coverage -  the Mike vs the dig.

It's a 2x2 and an 11 Gun Rt Doubles formation with scat protection vs Rover Dime Quarters. As the strongside slot widens to the flat vs the RB's slip route, the Mike (instead of bailing straight back) also widens to the strongside in respect to the #2's vertical stem to wall any possible in-breaking route by him. When he (Mike) does that, he abandons his primary responsibility of defending any underneath in breaking route from the backside - which was Amendola - on a critical short yardage situation (2&2).

Watch this clip very closely:

You can plainly see that QB's 3 step hitch is timed with the weakside #2's break on his 5 yard dig. As the QB's back foot hits, #2 breaks in, and upon his hitch step the ball should be thrown, as the Mike is still in a backpedal, and that #2 (Amendola) is wide open past the sticks. The ball could have and should have been immediately thrown then instead of waiting for the longer strongside routes (#1 post, #2 Dag) to develop and neither of which were timed up with the 3 step hitch. Brady was trying to do too much when the chain mover as right in front of him down the middle. It's that extra hitch he adds that allows the strip sack to happen.

By the time he is open, the play is already over...

[mission27]

And if his o-line could've held for half a second longer, he hits Gronk there for a big gain.  Even if he could've hit Amendola, which I don't think he could've (too risky), it was a calculated gamble based on how his o-line had played the entire second half.  It just didn't pay off.

[Carmen Cygni]

3 minutes ago, mission27 said:

By the time he is open, the play is already over...

1 minute ago, mission27 said:

And if his o-line could've held for half a second longer, he hits Gronk there for a big gain.  Even if he could've hit Amendola, which I don't think he could've (too risky), it was a calculated gamble based on how his o-line had played the entire second half.  It just didn't pay off.

 

Don't expose yourself like that. You look like an idiot.

[childofpudding]

32 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Close. It was quarters coverage out of their rover Dime personnel package and the difference is pattern match reads by the secondary as opposed to strictly zoning into the deep 1/4's of the field. The perimeter CBs are man on #1, and the two safeties are reading #2 to #1, and only take #2 on verticals which allows them to also help on #1 if available. The inside slot CBs have flat responsibilities and Mike walls off anything that comes over the middle underneath. This is where the Patriots could have taken advantage of the coverage -  the Mike vs the dig.

It's a 2x2 and an 11 Gun Rt Doubles formation with scat protection vs Rover Dime Quarters. As the strongside slot widens to the flat vs the RB's slip route, the Mike (instead of bailing straight back) also widens to the strongside in respect to the #2's vertical stem to wall any possible in-breaking route by him. When he (Mike) does that, he abandons his primary responsibility of defending any underneath in breaking route from the backside - which was Amendola - on a critical short yardage situation (2&2).

Watch this clip very closely:

You can plainly see that QB's 3 step hitch is timed with the weakside #2's break on his 5 yard dig. As the QB's back foot hits, #2 breaks in, and upon his hitch step the ball should be thrown, as the Mike is still in a backpedal, and that #2 (Amendola) is wide open past the sticks. The ball could have and should have been immediately thrown then instead of waiting for the longer strongside routes (#1 post, #2 Dag) to develop and neither of which were timed up with the 3 step hitch. Brady was trying to do too much when the chain mover as right in front of him down the middle. It's that extra hitch he adds that allows the strip sack to happen.

Thanks for the clip, I had not yet seen the All-22, so I just assumed the quarters. I still disagree, though. Looks like Brady's 3-step hitch is plenty of time for Gronk's post route to develop, but the coverage underneath was softer than he expected, as the two slot DBs moved back as Brady finished his drop. Seems pretty clear from that clip that his first read is to Gronkowski or Hogan, and by the time he moves off that it's too late.

I will say this. Considering PHI's coverage on the 1st down, Brady could have read the Cover 4 and changed his 1st read to White in the flat. Two plays is admittedly a very small sample size, but it looked like PHI was gearing up to either make a RZ stand, try to jump a route later in the drive, or hope beyond hope that one of their DL would make a game-changing play after being held in check for most of the game. Third option happened.

When a QB gets sacked in 2.8 seconds and it wasn't a free rush at the passer, ie. a missed protection pickup, that's rarely the QB's fault. Tip your hat to Graham and move on.