Draft Discussion 3.0

[bruceb]

The draft process reminds me of plaintiff trial law practice.

The client comes in and tells a story.

The story is a statue of beauty, a Venus de Milo, a David.

And as you go through discovery chips and chunks are cut and smashed from its frame, and scrapes and scars galore mark what's left.

[bruceb]

4 minutes ago, freakygeniuskid said:

CB (at the top, thins out after the 2nd round group)
Interior OL
Franchise QBs
RB

Agree.

And I am hearing that Dorsey has done well (with which I agree) because he has filled positions that are not strong in the draft.

Getting the QB is a given.

Getting an RB, too.

We probably also will grab a CB.

So what the hell else should we realistically hope to accomplish in this draft?

Personally, I want a vicious, marauding LB.

 

[AkronsWitness]

11 hours ago, MWil23 said:

If Denzel Ward falls out of the Top 10, it's because he's only 5'10. If he was 6'0, he'd be talked about as a "Blue Chip" top 5 pick in the draft.

Joe Haden is only 3/4 of an inch taller and was a MUCH worse athlete coming out and was still the 7th pick.

Its because Joe Haden was simply a better prospect. They are similar in size, but Haden played much larger and more aggressive with his size. He was touted as a fantastic press cover corner coming out of college. Those two things are Wards weaknesses.

Haden was a smaller corner that played big and Ward is a smaller corner that plays small. Haden also was highly regarded for his ability to guard big SEC receivers which as we saw translated to the NFL with his constant shutdown of AJ Green. Ward has a tendency to get muscles around when he covers bigger athletes and thats where his size gets the best of him. Look no further than the Indiana game where Simmie Cobbs who is 6'4" got the best of him on back shoulder throws many times on all of those jump balls they were throwing.

Ward simply just doesnt have the strength or play-style to get physical with bigger WRs. Hes a off-man corner who wont get beat deep because of his athletic ability, but I wouldnt ask him to play press--which Haden was a monster at in college and pros. Which is why he is touted as a nickle CB because of his lack of size/physicality on the perimeter 

[bruceb]

6 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Its because Joe Haden was simply a better prospect. They are similar in size, but Haden played much larger and more aggressive with his size. He was touted as a fantastic press cover corner coming out of college. Those two things are Wards weaknesses.

Haden was a smaller corner that played big and Ward is a smaller corner that plays small. Haden also was highly regarded for his ability to guard big SEC receivers which as we saw translated to the NFL with his constant shutdown of AJ Green. Ward has a tendency to get muscles around when he covers bigger athletes and thats where his size gets the best of him. Look no further than the Indiana game where Simmie Cobbs who is 6'4" got the best of him on back shoulder throws many times on all of those jump balls they were throwing.

Ward simply just doesnt have the strength or play-style to get physical with bigger WRs. Hes a off-man corner who wont get beat deep because of his athletic ability, but I wouldnt ask him to play press--which Haden was a monster at in college and pros. Which is why he is touted as a nickle CB because of his lack of size/physicality on the perimeter 

Doesn't exactly sound like worthy of a pick at 4 or anywhere near it.

[AkronsWitness]

14 minutes ago, bruceb said:

Doesn't exactly sound like worthy of a pick at 4 or anywhere near it.

Hes not at 4 unless you are looking for a really good nickle CB who after a year or two can transition to the outside. His actual value is in the 7-11 range. Not top 5. 

I watched Ward at OSU just like everybody else and I think he just leans far more towards the 'athlete' side than the 'physical' side of DB. Meaning he is more Marcus Peters than Richard Sherman. Its preference. However 2 guys in the NFL who are nearly carbon copies of his size to Ward are Haden/Harris Jr. The difference is Haden/Harris Jr. both play as press corners who are extremely physical and are elite tacklers. Ward biggest knock is his physicality in man coverage and being a so-so tackler so eventhough Ward/Haden/Harris are all the same size, Ward is nowhere near the type of DB as the other two.

In the Browns case, he actually fits. You can put him in the slot his rookie year because we have Gaines/Carrie who can both play well outside. Then after his rookie year, they can transition him to outside once his feet get wet and he develops his game.

[BleedTheClock]

Denzel Ward's strength is his ability to play perfect press man coverage. His hand technique is excellent and he gets in the back hip of the WR and stays there as soon as he breaks the press. Not sure why you don't think he can be a press man corner. It's his best attribute and what makes him a much better prospect than Josh Jackson (although we don't run a press man scheme). Jackson is the off zone corner that plays passing lanes and allows too much separation at times. Ward is unbelievably sticky in coverage and doesn't allow an inch of separation.

@AkronsWitnessyour take on Ward is way different than most everyone else's. Everyone else views him as a small, but extremely scrappy corner that locks guys down in press man and isn't afraid to make tackles. Ward is my #3 ranked player in this class and I think he'd be a fantastic fit here, even though we don't run a whole lot of man coverage. Plus, I'd imagine Denzel Ward would survive on the Browns much later than Gregg Williams will given he's part of Hue Jackson's staff.

 

And I've settled on my gameplan for the 1st round:

 

1. Darnold no matter what.

4. Barkley no matter what. If he's gone, trade down no matter what.

(after trading down, target Denzel Ward, Derwin James, Marcus Davenport, Vita Vea.)

[AkronsWitness]

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

Denzel Ward's strength is his ability to play perfect press man coverage. His hand technique is excellent and he gets in the back hip of the WR and stays there as soon as he breaks the press. Not sure why you don't think he can be a press man corner. It's his best attribute and what makes him a much better prospect than Josh Jackson (although we don't run a press man scheme). Jackson is the off zone corner that plays passing lanes and allows too much separation at times. Ward is unbelievably sticky in coverage and doesn't allow an inch of separation.

@AkronsWitnessyour take on Ward is way different than most everyone else's. Everyone else views him as a small, but extremely scrappy corner that locks guys down in press man and isn't afraid to make tackles. Ward is my #3 ranked player in this class and I think he'd be a fantastic fit here, even though we don't run a whole lot of man coverage. Plus, I'd imagine Denzel Ward would survive on the Browns much later than Gregg Williams will given he's part of Hue Jackson's staff.

 

And I've settled on my gameplan for the 1st round:

 

1. Darnold no matter what.

4. Barkley no matter what. If he's gone, trade down no matter what.

(after trading down, target Denzel Ward, Derwin James, Marcus Davenport, Vita Vea.)

Meh, IDK I have seen it both ways, here is his draft profile

Frame is somewhat slight and he feels small in coverage at times. Lacks play strength to jam and disrupt. Appears to avoid route contact so he doesn't upset coverage balance. Physical receivers can body him around at the top of the route. Needs to turn and find football sooner with back to the ball. Always around the throw, but lack of size and length shows up with "just misses" in pass defense. Several pass breakups came on throws with poor placement. Coverage benefitted from deep, talented rush unit up front. Has issues disengaging from big blocking receivers. Big backs drag him for a ride in run support.

[candyman93]

Just a prediction, but I think we do what we did last year and trade up so that we end up drafting 3 guys in the 1st round. We will take maybe a CB or DE.

[MWil23]

7 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Its because Joe Haden was simply a better prospect. They are similar in size, but Haden played much larger and more aggressive with his size. He was touted as a fantastic press cover corner coming out of college. Those two things are Wards weaknesses.

LOL. This is where I stopped reading. ALL Ward plays is man/press man. That's literally all OSU plays, except for occasional quarters.

 

[Aztec Hammer]

I would like to trade one of the 2nds for a 2019 1st.

And possibly use the other to get into the back of the first round.

[MSURacerDT55]

7 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Meh, IDK I have seen it both ways, here is his draft profile

Frame is somewhat slight and he feels small in coverage at times. Lacks play strength to jam and disrupt. Appears to avoid route contact so he doesn't upset coverage balance. Physical receivers can body him around at the top of the route. Needs to turn and find football sooner with back to the ball. Always around the throw, but lack of size and length shows up with "just misses" in pass defense. Several pass breakups came on throws with poor placement. Coverage benefitted from deep, talented rush unit up front. Has issues disengaging from big blocking receivers. Big backs drag him for a ride in run support.

So do you take that as bible or do you take what your eyes and film study tell you? There are so many lies and inconsistencies in this profile, this literally is the worst profile you can find

[TheeRealDeal]

9 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Meh, IDK I have seen it both ways, here is his draft profile

Frame is somewhat slight and he feels small in coverage at times. Lacks play strength to jam and disrupt. Appears to avoid route contact so he doesn't upset coverage balance. Physical receivers can body him around at the top of the route. Needs to turn and find football sooner with back to the ball. Always around the throw, but lack of size and length shows up with "just misses" in pass defense. Several pass breakups came on throws with poor placement. Coverage benefitted from deep, talented rush unit up front. Has issues disengaging from big blocking receivers. Big backs drag him for a ride in run support.

I see you drastically edited your post from when I read it last night. Ward strickly a zone corner? Hahaha someone clearly doesn't watch his prospects and clearly forms his opinions based on talking heads, stats and testing results.

Denzel Ward is the best man to man corner in the draft period. You are correct in one thing and one thing only and that is Denzel Ward is not physical. Who cares? He wins with his feet and elite mirroring skills. Deion Sanders and Darrell Green were not physical, Sanders probably being the biggest ***** to ever play in the NFL, but they were dominant man to man corners. No one is drafting Denzel Ward to be a run defender either. Any 190-195 pound DB is going to have trouble disengaging from big blocking receivers and go for a ride in run support. Its the same reason why 260 pound LBs will always struggle in man coverage against backs and slots. Hopefully we have coaches smart enough to keep players out of negative situations.

The game of football is all about match ups and the smart coaches do the best job of putting their players in the best positions to have success. Denzel Ward is not going to be high successful against guys like Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, Demaryius Thomas or A.J. Green, so you game plan to avoid that match up. Just because they are the other teams #1 WR doesn't mean you should always put your #1 CB on them. Match your teams skill sets with the other teams skill sets. Denzel Ward is a guy who can match up against Antonio Brown's, Mike Wallace, Golden Tate, DeSean Jackson types or are extremely elusive and explosive at the top end of their routes and hard for these big press corners to handle due to the differences in center of gravity.

Denzel Ward is not wort #4 overall simply because there are some darn good football player available at the top of this draft but Ward is hands down the best man to man corner in this draft and should be a Top 15 lock.

[TheeRealDeal]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

So do you take that as bible or do you take what your eyes and film study tell you? There are so many lies and inconsistencies in this profile, this literally is the worst profile you can find

Kid clearly never really watched Ward. He called him a pure zone corner only. I read it at like 2am and then when I woke up today he edited his original post because someone called him out on it.

[AkronsWitness]

1 hour ago, TheeRealDeal said:

I see you drastically edited your post from when I read it last night. Ward strickly a zone corner? Hahaha someone clearly doesn't watch his prospects and clearly forms his opinions based on talking heads, stats and testing results.

Denzel Ward is the best man to man corner in the draft period. You are correct in one thing and one thing only and that is Denzel Ward is not physical. Who cares? He wins with his feet and elite mirroring skills. Deion Sanders and Darrell Green were not physical, Sanders probably being the biggest ***** to ever play in the NFL, but they were dominant man to man corners. No one is drafting Denzel Ward to be a run defender either. Any 190-195 pound DB is going to have trouble disengaging from big blocking receivers and go for a ride in run support. Its the same reason why 260 pound LBs will always struggle in man coverage against backs and slots. Hopefully we have coaches smart enough to keep players out of negative situations.

The game of football is all about match ups and the smart coaches do the best job of putting their players in the best positions to have success. Denzel Ward is not going to be high successful against guys like Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, Demaryius Thomas or A.J. Green, so you game plan to avoid that match up. Just because they are the other teams #1 WR doesn't mean you should always put your #1 CB on them. Match your teams skill sets with the other teams skill sets. Denzel Ward is a guy who can match up against Antonio Brown's, Mike Wallace, Golden Tate, DeSean Jackson types or are extremely elusive and explosive at the top end of their routes and hard for these big press corners to handle due to the differences in center of gravity.

Denzel Ward is not wort #4 overall simply because there are some darn good football player available at the top of this draft but Ward is hands down the best man to man corner in this draft and should be a Top 15 lock.

I was never saying that I didnt like Ward but after watching him at OSU, reading his profiles and what the consensus is on him everything aligns with him just not being a physical corner. Not that it means hes going to bust, but like I also said he leans far more towards Marcus Peters than Richard Sherman in play style. He is a helluva athlete who has the recognition, hips and quickness to jump routes and get his hands inside the WR resulting in all of his PDs.

He is a good corner, but hes far from flawless and thats what I said taking him at #4 is a little bit of a stretch especially when you can get a guy like Hughes/Alexander in the 2nd round. 

I thought Lattimore last year was a much better CB prospect than Ward because of his  prototypical size and ability to be physcial were also there along with similar playmaking ability. Lattimore slipped to the 11th pick I believe because people were concerned about him being a 1 year wonder.

Ward is the best 1v1 man cover corner in this class and thats not debatable. However, my point is that he is a flawed prospect in some areas because of his physical limitations and taking him at #4 would be a huge reach just to fill a position of need.

[goldfishwars]

Hi guys

We're voting again on Cleveland's pick at 1 in the draft section. It would be great to have your thoughts and votes. 

Thanks,

GFW