Jets trade up to 3

[barnaby8787]

2 hours ago, doumeyer said:

What makes you think Darnold. is better than Rosen?  I watch both of them play, and I would take Rosen any day of the week, and I don't care which QB we get in the draft, I will be happy.

Rosen has less upside. You can argue with me about it all day if you want, but analysts are on my side on that one. 

[rampantjet]

2 hours ago, doumeyer said:

What makes you think Darnold. is better than Rosen?  I watch both of them play, and I would take Rosen any day of the week, and I don't care which QB we get in the draft, I will be happy.

I think people view Darnold as a better prospect than Rosen because he can make things happen out of structure like a magician.  Where as Rosen's forte is in the structure of the play.  Both are valuable but I think coaches believe that it is much easier to teach Darnold to play in the structure than it would be to teach Rosen to be better at improvising.  

As far as people doubting Rosen's ceiling I think the only reason they would do that is because he is pretty much just stuck doing things on time, as due to his pocket awareness and movement skills he probably won't get a ton better at improvising.  What they ignore is that most of a QB's improvement would come in the form of knowledge and execution.  Rosen, like all of these guys, can all improve vastly at this skill.  Look at Brady, he isn't some dynamic Russell Wilson Houdini, but he keeps increasing his knowledge to a ridiculous degree which means he barely ever finds himself in the situation to NEED to create on the fly. 

[barnaby8787]

5 minutes ago, rampantjet said:

I think people view Darnold as a better prospect than Rosen because he can make things happen out of structure like a magician.  Where as Rosen's forte is in the structure of the play.  Both are valuable but I think coaches believe that it is much easier to teach Darnold to play in the structure than it would be to teach Rosen to be better at improvising.  

As far as people doubting Rosen's ceiling I think the only reason they would do that is because he is pretty much just stuck doing things on time, as due to his pocket awareness and movement skills he probably won't get a ton better at improvising.  What they ignore is that most of a QB's improvement would come in the form of knowledge and execution.  Rosen, like all of these guys, can all improve vastly at this skill.  Look at Brady, he isn't some dynamic Russell Wilson Houdini, but he keeps increasing his knowledge to a ridiculous degree which means he barely ever finds himself in the situation to NEED to create on the fly. 

The two biggest flaws in Darnold's game are his throwing motion and turnovers.  Rosen's are his inaccuracy on the deep ball and on the run.  Darnold's motion is an easy fix.   If you can fix the turnovers, he's nearly flawless.  For Rosen, you can fix the inaccuracies although it's more difficult IMO.  Pair that with the injury concerns and the potential for attitude issues (leaving it as potential), you get the better prospect in Darnold.  Rosen btw isn't the best with turnovers either FWIW.  Still am very high on both as prospects though.  Baker as well.

[rampantjet]

3 minutes ago, barnaby8787 said:

The two biggest flaws in Darnold's game are his throwing motion and turnovers.  Rosen's are his inaccuracy on the deep ball and on the run.  Darnold's motion is an easy fix.   If you can fix the turnovers, he's nearly flawless.  For Rosen, you can fix the inaccuracies although it's more difficult IMO.  Pair that with the injury concerns and the potential for attitude issues (leaving it as potential), you get the better prospect in Darnold.  Rosen btw isn't the best with turnovers either FWIW.  Still am very high on both as prospects though.  Baker as well.

Yeesh, turnovers is a big one though.  And yes Rosen was actually 2nd in most turnovers of these guys.  I really don't see much of a problem with Darnolds throwing motion.  He gets the ball out very quickly despite his wind up that covers a lot of space.  What he DOES need to fix though is consistency with his feet.  Rosen is very consistent with his feet, so when he misses a throw that makes it more puzzling and harder to fix.

[rdelaney89]

8 hours ago, rampantjet said:

Did you see the trash that Kansas was doing?  It started with them refusing to shake his hand, and not even having the children that were lined up with them at the coin toss shake his hand, then they said crazy stuff to him all game... that is all nothing really but it built up to them basically taking cheap shots and trying to hurt him.  I am a pretty laid back guy but if i thought some dudes were hitting me really late intentionally trying to hurt me crotch grabbing is the least of what you would see.  In reality I'm amazed he didn't hit somebody.  No other QB out of these 5 have had to deal with a team intentionally being jerks and then intentionally trying to hurt them.  If he has the self control to only grab his crotch in that situation then i applaud him.  

Guys get hit by pitches in baseball all the time and start bench clearing brawls and no one calls them thugs or questions their character, they are scrappy players (who just happen to be playing the softest sport).  I'd rather get hit in the side by a baseball than hit by a 300lb guy late when you're no longer expecting it.

Also I don't know how you think you are alone in not wanting Mayfield.  I'd say the fan base is much closer to 50/50.  I think you receive more push back because you keep bringing up things that don't matter.  When people bring up question marks with his play there isn't a huge deluge to defend him.

I’m quoting you because this is exactly how I feel and it seems like Bobby doesn’t have an answer for your response.

 

Pick apart Mayfield’s game all you want, I won’t argue it much, I disagree with the assessment but I think is valid to question. To say Mayfield is some type of thug is upsurd and feels very much like an agenda being pushed. If teams were remotely concerned about his off the field issues he would not sniff the top 3, clearly that is harping on something that no other franchise is doing. It’s like teams view his arrest as a kid in college drinking to much one time, not like we are hearing all these stories like we did with Manziel. The guy has blown people away in every single interview, has been the best on the white board, has a photographic memory, and hates to lose. This guy has been told “you can’t do it” every step of the way and refuses to settle. 

Mayfield is not Manziel just like Rosen is not Cutler and just like Darnold is not Sanchez. 

[rdelaney89]

Found this interesting: Rosen was under 37% in converting 3rd downs into 1st downs in his final year of college. Here is a list of the 15 QBs he shares that category with:

Josh Allen 

Davis Webb 

CJ Beathard

Joshua Dobbs

Christian Hackenberg

Bryce Petty

Cody Kessler

Cardele Jones

Sean Mannion

Derek Carr

Matt Barkley

Jake Locker

Blaine Gabbert

Jimmy Clausen

Josh Freeman

 

Rosen also ranks last of all the QB prospects when asked to move outside of the pocket, in terms of accuracy.

Football Outsiders scores all QBs coming out and while there are plenty of prospects that score in the mid range that play well the upper level of their scores has been pretty damn accurate at finding star players. Their top 10 scores all time:

1. Philip Rivers (1,964 QBASE)
2. Carson Palmer (1,916 QBASE)
3. Donovan McNabb (1,799 QBASE)
4. Baker Mayfield (1,480 QBASE)
5. Russell Wilson (1,288 QBASE)
6. Peyton Manning (1,279 QBASE)
7. Marcus Mariota (1,277 QBASE)
8. Byron Leftwich (1,216 QBASE)
9. Aaron Rodgers (1,216 QBASE)
10. Ben Roethlisberger (1,211 QBASE)

 

Stats can be miss-leading for sure and can be used to skew any argument but that is some interesting company. Will Rosen be Derek Carr? Will Mayfield be Leftwich? 

[rampantjet]

13 minutes ago, rdelaney89 said:

Found this interesting: Rosen was under 37% in converting 3rd downs into 1st downs in his final year of college. Here is a list of the 15 QBs he shares that category with:

Josh Allen 

Davis Webb 

CJ Beathard

Joshua Dobbs

Christian Hackenberg

Bryce Petty

Cody Kessler

Cardele Jones

Sean Mannion

Derek Carr

Matt Barkley

Jake Locker

Blaine Gabbert

Jimmy Clausen

Josh Freeman

 

Rosen also ranks last of all the QB prospects when asked to move outside of the pocket, in terms of accuracy.

Football Outsiders scores all QBs coming out and while there are plenty of prospects that score in the mid range that play well the upper level of their scores has been pretty damn accurate at finding star players. Their top 10 scores all time:

1. Philip Rivers (1,964 QBASE)
2. Carson Palmer (1,916 QBASE)
3. Donovan McNabb (1,799 QBASE)
4. Baker Mayfield (1,480 QBASE)
5. Russell Wilson (1,288 QBASE)
6. Peyton Manning (1,279 QBASE)
7. Marcus Mariota (1,277 QBASE)
8. Byron Leftwich (1,216 QBASE)
9. Aaron Rodgers (1,216 QBASE)
10. Ben Roethlisberger (1,211 QBASE)

 

Stats can be miss-leading for sure and can be used to skew any argument but that is some interesting company. Will Rosen be Derek Carr? Will Mayfield be Leftwich? 

Ya I've seen that QBASE score top 10 before.... pretty impressive list if you ask me.

[KingOfNewYork]

Going to study Baker Mayfield for the next hour after everything I've read. 

[Bobby816]

6 hours ago, rdelaney89 said:

I’m quoting you because this is exactly how I feel and it seems like Bobby doesn’t have an answer for your response.

 

Pick apart Mayfield’s game all you want, I won’t argue it much, I disagree with the assessment but I think is valid to question. To say Mayfield is some type of thug is upsurd and feels very much like an agenda being pushed. If teams were remotely concerned about his off the field issues he would not sniff the top 3, clearly that is harping on something that no other franchise is doing. It’s like teams view his arrest as a kid in college drinking to much one time, not like we are hearing all these stories like we did with Manziel. The guy has blown people away in every single interview, has been the best on the white board, has a photographic memory, and hates to lose. This guy has been told “you can’t do it” every step of the way and refuses to settle. 

Mayfield is not Manziel just like Rosen is not Cutler and just like Darnold is not Sanchez. 

Not sure why my names coming up when I haven’t been in this conversation, but I’ll respond anyway.

Clearly you pick and choose what you read in my posts. Bc I’ve actually talked a lot about things I like in Mayfields game. I’ve never questioned his arm or head from a football stance. I do however question his size big time and the huge transition from a wide open spread to an nfl offense. I’ve absolutely shot down all these stats some throw at me on his accuracy on nfl throws and such. Bc I literally have watched nearly every OU game he’s played in. I see his WRs and TEs wide open most the time. If not wide open the guy he’s throwing to is a future nfl player going against a nobody so of course he wins the “50/50” ball. His OLine giving him 12 seconds to throw. Things like this that don’t really ever happen in the nfl. And this is not by any means saying he won’t be accurate. It’s me saying these “stats” are inflated and blinding some. I 100% feel that all of you drooling over Mayfield are stat lovers and not looking at the big picture. And I also refuse to ignore his cocky arrogant me personality. When you’re the best player on a high school and college football team it’s not a big deal. But when you’re a professional with grown men it’s not ok. And I see him struggling with this. Just my opinion. He rubs a lot of people the wrong way and there no way that type of personality will fly with 52 other players and dozens of coaches at a professional level.

Ive also stated that if we draft him and Darnold and/or Rosen are there I won’t be happy with the pick. But that doesn’t mean I will wont cheer for and hope the best for him. I’m a jet fan. But that doesn’t mean I have to like every pick we make.

[DowNY]

https://twitter.com/OptimumScouting/status/988054915649081345?s=20

 

dude got Rosen falling all the way to 17

[rickyt31]

18 hours ago, JetsFan15 said:

I think the scouts look at things that need to be improved and that can be improved to estimate growth.   There are certain things you can't teach .. i.e. arm strength .. but you can work on things like footwork to improve performance.  My take is that a guy like Rosen is a what you see is pretty much what you get while some other guys may take a step or two forward with proper coaching.

It just doesn't make sense to me at all. Are we saying he's too good that it's hard to believe him getting better? 

He can still improve things like footwork like every single starting QB had to do. He can make all the throws and he'll continue learning through experience. That will make him one of the league's best. Physically he's 1 inch shorter than Josh Allen and weighs just as much as him.  

[jetfuel34]

5 hours ago, DowNY said:

https://twitter.com/OptimumScouting/status/988054915649081345?s=20

 

dude got Rosen falling all the way to 17

I'm not surprised if he fell that far. Rosen has turned a lot of GM off with his interviews, along with his leadership and health problems. I personal hope we stay away from him. He will not be a long term solution and he has pretty much good footwork and release which means physical he is what you are looking for. The mental part scares the crap out of me. He is just not 100% committed to football. We I see him on the field I feel like he does enough to get by and does not want to put the work in to get better.

[JetsFan15]

5 hours ago, rickyt31 said:

It just doesn't make sense to me at all. Are we saying he's too good that it's hard to believe him getting better? 

He can still improve things like footwork like every single starting QB had to do. He can make all the throws and he'll continue learning through experience. That will make him one of the league's best. Physically he's 1 inch shorter than Josh Allen and weighs just as much as him.  

You don't get how you can look at any athlete, in any sport before they have completely matured as an athlete and project that they can improve and be a better player?

This is what scouting is all about.  Sometimes the scouts are right and sometimes wrong.  But this is the essence of the draft.  This is why we see guys go in higher rounds then projected.  Guys who were not expected to be drafted get drafted.  It is all based on how they (scouts, GMs, FO personal, coaches) see the player improving in the NFL,  It's all upside. 

As it pertains to this QB class.  I think most agree that Darnold and Allen have higher upside then Rosen.  And that Rosen has a lower floor then Darnold and Allen.  Why?  It is not that Rosen has nothing to improve but that his physical skills don't match that as the other two.  Specifically I am talking about mobility with Rosen and ability to succeed highly in a "scramble drill" type of setting.  Like it or not, the NFL draft is largely about physical tools.  Improving some technical "glitches" or coaching up guys with better physical skills can lead to a higher upside.  Specific to Rosen - he is has serious medical concerns that IMO has scared off some teams or have had teams rank him lower. 

 

[barnaby8787]

FWIW, Peter King is saying that he has a trusted source that told him the browns are going Darnold.  He also has Rosen to the Jets and Mayfield to the Cards. 

[Bianconero]

Lol