Positional Rankings + Top 50 w/ Explanation

[AlNFL19]

13 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Yeah Mark Walton is a stud. My jaw hit the floor by how bad his NFL combine was though. He's so explosive when you watch him on tape. He's probably not going to be drafted before the 4th round now, but he's going to be a steal for someone.

His combine was a result of his ankle injury. That's the only solution I can think of that really makes any sense. I'd love him not going before R4 though, because maybe then the Pats can get him.

[CWood21]

22 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

When has he shown flashes of being a good run defender? He gets demolished in the run game. I did see him stunt inside and come clean on a few plays and get TFL's, but he's not going to hold up as an edge setter. He's purely a nuanced speed rusher.

Watch FSU vs. Boston College from last year. Roderick Johnson made Harold Landry hold his pocket after that game. And Roderick Johnson struggles with speed typically. Landry looked lost and incapable in that game at full health. He is a good athlete with great bend, but he doesn't strike me as someone that's going to do anything in terms of run defense in his career. And it's not really a want-to thing. He does gets after it out there, but he has poor hand usage and is just too frail to deal with guys that much bigger and stronger than he is.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I think he's a plus run defender.  Hell, I'm not sure he'll ever be that kind of player.  But I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit in the run game if it means I'm getting a better pass rusher.  I'll use the Clemson game as an example.

At the 0:10 mark, he gets caught drifting inside but manages to disengage in order to make a play on the ball carrier.  Hand placement on this one could stand to use some work, but seems to have his eyes up and active enough hands.  At the 0:25 mark, the way the Clemson OL is moving you'd anticipate some sort of counter play, and despite the play action in the backfield he seems to keep his hips parallel to the LOS which is strong fundamentals.  At the 0:30 mark, he does a great job disengaging from the tackle to be available to make a play on the ball carrier.  The back makes a good play in the backfield to avoid Landry, otherwise that's another TFL.

But there's the bad in there as well.  At the 0:47 mark, he gets caught sucked in and he gets sucked into the mess and lost contain.  There's more in there you can continue to dig into, but there's enough there to believe that he'll improve in that area.  Hell, looking back at that Clemson game he had a better game than the stats indicated.

[VanS]

5 hours ago, AlNFL19 said:

Kelly has incredible balance and electric feet, but I prefer Mark Walton from Miami. He's got better burst and as a result I think he's the draft's No. 2 back. Kelly's somewhere in my top 15, I forget where exactly. Great RB class this year, would've been even more loaded if Damien Harris declared.

I have Mark Walton rated 5th so he's another guy I like a lot as well.

[Iamcanadian]

48 minutes ago, VanS said:

I have Mark Walton rated 5th so he's another guy I like a lot as well.

Sorry, but nobody can predict what a prospect at any position, will do at the next level!!! All you can do is rank them as prospects and as prospects, Kelly and Walton do not come into the top 6. It is a very deep RB crop and many will go on to have great careers, maybe Kelly and Walton pass some or all of those rated above them, it happens all the time, but as prospects they do not deserve to be rated too high.

I have liked prospects who weren't even rated in the top 100 by draftniks or most NFL.com ex pro scouts who went on to be drafted as high as round 3, but as prospects,they did not deserve to be ranked too high, even though they went on to have solid pro careers.

Nothing wrong with saying you love a certain prospect and putting his name forward as a potential decent pro, but to argue they deserve to be ranked near the top of their class is not defendable.

[reamer]

9 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

Sorry, but nobody can predict what a prospect at any position, will do at the next level!!! All you can do is rank them as prospects and as prospects, Kelly and Walton do not come into the top 6. It is a very deep RB crop and many will go on to have great careers, maybe Kelly and Walton pass some or all of those rated above them, it happens all the time, but as prospects they do not deserve to be rated too high.

I have liked prospects who weren't even rated in the top 100 by draftniks or most NFL.com ex pro scouts who went on to be drafted as high as round 3, but as prospects,they did not deserve to be ranked too high, even though they went on to have solid pro careers.

Nothing wrong with saying you love a certain prospect and putting his name forward as a potential decent pro, but to argue they deserve to be ranked near the top of their class is not defendable.

 

May I suggest you're potentially backward on this one? What good is a prospect if he can't play? Many successful teams rate players in their likelihood to start, not just on some made up grade scale. I don't care if a guy is a 7.5 or an 8.1. I care if he looks like he can produce in my scheme and continue to the team. It's not ridiculous to suggest Walton may be a top five guy. 

 

And this is coming from someone who doesn't usually agree with VanS.

[Da_Ducktator]

I find it funny that even after sub-par Pro Day testing that Maurice Hurst still gets the love he does. There is a big difference between snap anticipation and actual burst/explosive ability. Hurst made a career off of snap anticipation in college which can win you plenty of battles against guys that are not going to the NFL. In the NFL though, you have to couple that with something and Hurst is undersized with short arms and average agility/burst (which was verified at his Pro Day). Look at the last two years in his games against elite O-Lines in Ohio State and Wisconsin. Hurst was shutdown because he was against NFL guys, trying to win with a sub-par skill-set.

People look at his size and career TFL's and want the next Aaron Donald/Geno Atkins/Grady Jarrett. Hurst doesn't even touch the low end of that spectrum (Jarrett) and will struggle to consistently find success in the league.

[MSURacerDT55]

14 hours ago, CWood21 said:

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I think he's a plus run defender.  Hell, I'm not sure he'll ever be that kind of player.  But I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit in the run game if it means I'm getting a better pass rusher.  I'll use the Clemson game as an example.

At the 0:10 mark, he gets caught drifting inside but manages to disengage in order to make a play on the ball carrier.  Hand placement on this one could stand to use some work, but seems to have his eyes up and active enough hands.  At the 0:25 mark, the way the Clemson OL is moving you'd anticipate some sort of counter play, and despite the play action in the backfield he seems to keep his hips parallel to the LOS which is strong fundamentals.  At the 0:30 mark, he does a great job disengaging from the tackle to be available to make a play on the ball carrier.  The back makes a good play in the backfield to avoid Landry, otherwise that's another TFL.

But there's the bad in there as well.  At the 0:47 mark, he gets caught sucked in and he gets sucked into the mess and lost contain.  There's more in there you can continue to dig into, but there's enough there to believe that he'll improve in that area.  Hell, looking back at that Clemson game he had a better game than the stats indicated.

30000000% False,this film is all bad, and will only get worse on the next level with bigger, faster, stronger guys who have to feed their kids. This film completely proves my point, he is an easy out in the run game 

- Routinely 3-5 yards off the line in the run game

- Never reset the LOS

- When he did pass rush, he rushed right down the middle (Which is a no-no) and had zero hand usage at all.

- Made one play when he was unblocked

- Its clear he is not cut out for LOS, big boy football

- 

[CWood21]

7 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

30000000% False,this film is all bad, and will only get worse on the next level with bigger, faster, stronger guys who have to feed their kids. This film completely proves my point, he is an easy out in the run game 

- Routinely 3-5 yards off the line in the run game

- Never reset the LOS

- When he did pass rush, he rushed right down the middle (Which is a no-no) and had zero hand usage at all.

- Made one play when he was unblocked

- Its clear he is not cut out for LOS, big boy football

Pretty much what I expected.  If this is the "analysis" that I'm going to get out of you, we'll just chalk this up to agreeing to disagree.  If not, I'd love to continue to discuss this.

You make the argument that he's routinely 3-5 yards off the LOS.  That's a schematic issue, not an issue with the player.  So unless you have something to support your argument that him playing off the LOS is on him when the likelihood is that it's probably a scheme call.

I'm not totally sure what you mean by resetting at the LOS.  I'd love for you to expound on that.

You say he only rushes "down the middle" and that couldn't be more false.  At the 0:34 mark, he does a good job converting speed into power, which unfortunately he doesn't consistently show the ability to.  Him pushing the RT back into the QBs lap certainly affected his throw.  He again converts speed into power at the 1:10 mark.

I'm trying to be nice, but your "analysis" is bad.  At least try and support your argument with specific plays (cite times when these things happen at least).  What exactly is your grade on Landry?

[Iamcanadian]

14 hours ago, reamer said:

 

May I suggest you're potentially backward on this one? What good is a prospect if he can't play? Many successful teams rate players in their likelihood to start, not just on some made up grade scale. I don't care if a guy is a 7.5 or an 8.1. I care if he looks like he can produce in my scheme and continue to the team. It's not ridiculous to suggest Walton may be a top five guy. 

 

And this is coming from someone who doesn't usually agree with VanS.

There isn't any prospects who carry a guarantee that they will be successful at the next level. The draft is a complete crapshoot, and what prospects do at the next level is anybody's guess.

All we do is rank them based on their talent, athletic ability and perceived intangibles, but nobody knows how much heart, determination and character a prospect has? 

Every team uses a grade scale based on their perceived ability to start in that team's system. However, when trying to predict what a prospect will actually do at the next level, is a whole different ball game. Nobody knows what each guy will do at the next level, NOBODY!!! All we do is predict their ranking based on the above list and saying I have a different guy rated in the top 5 means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things, I can say that about the 25th rated guy.

IMO, neither Kelly or Walton are ranked currently as top 5 RB's in this draft year, but no matter where they are drafted, their future as pros will be decided on the playing field, they could bypass all the other RB's rated ahead of them or they both could be flops, just like all the top 5 picks could be either!!!

I absolutely love Mayfield as a prospect, he reminds me so much of Brees with his leadership skills, competitiveness and fearlessness. However, that does not make him rated over Darnold, Allen or Rosen. Actually only draft day will decide how they are rated, but right now, I would have to say he is rated #4 on most team's draft boards.

VanS is saying Kelly and Walton should be near the top of the RB class and all I am saying is, they currently aren't. He can say he loves them as prospects and believes strongly that they will succeed as pros, but he cannot say they do in fact belong as top 5 ranked RB's, because it simply isn't a fact. 

[Chwf3rd25]

On 3/26/2018 at 4:24 PM, BleedTheClock said:

When has he shown flashes of being a good run defender? He gets demolished in the run game. I did see him stunt inside and come clean on a few plays and get TFL's, but he's not going to hold up as an edge setter. He's purely a nuanced speed rusher.

Watch FSU vs. Boston College from last year. Roderick Johnson made Harold Landry hold his pocket after that game. And Roderick Johnson struggles with speed typically. Landry looked lost and incapable in that game at full health. He is a good athlete with great bend, but he doesn't strike me as someone that's going to do anything in terms of run defense in his career. And it's not really a want-to thing. He does gets after it out there, but he has poor hand usage and is just too frail to deal with guys that much bigger and stronger than he is.

There's no cut-up of Landry vs Florida St from last year so I haven't watched that one but I don't think he's a liability in the run game at all.  Is he a plus vs the run? No, but he's also not going to kill you.  He's kind of small (although not really) but he consistently grabs the OTs cloth and disengages using a pull move while keeping his eyes in the backfield and watching the ball.  I'll try to find the FSU tape but the only time I really saw him get demolished in the run game was vs Notre Dame this year when McGlinchey and Nelson ganged up on him.

He needs to develop some kind of counter but he's a super solid Top 15 pick for me.  Even in his supposed down year he was consistently disruptive against solid competition and can win using a pure speed rush w/ bend, a nice long arm move, and a push/pull move.  He checks every box to me.

[Chwf3rd25]

16 hours ago, Da_Ducktator said:

I find it funny that even after sub-par Pro Day testing that Maurice Hurst still gets the love he does. There is a big difference between snap anticipation and actual burst/explosive ability. Hurst made a career off of snap anticipation in college which can win you plenty of battles against guys that are not going to the NFL. In the NFL though, you have to couple that with something and Hurst is undersized with short arms and average agility/burst (which was verified at his Pro Day). Look at the last two years in his games against elite O-Lines in Ohio State and Wisconsin. Hurst was shutdown because he was against NFL guys, trying to win with a sub-par skill-set.

People look at his size and career TFL's and want the next Aaron Donald/Geno Atkins/Grady Jarrett. Hurst doesn't even touch the low end of that spectrum (Jarrett) and will struggle to consistently find success in the league.

Even as an average/below average athlete it's hard to ignore when someone is as consistently disruptive as Hurst is.  It seems a little unfair to point to 2 games and ignore the rest of his resume.  Its not like he's a small school guy who struggled in his only two games vs D1 opponents.  I think part of people's issue with Hurst is that when he loses it looks worse than when other guys lose.  

[Chwf3rd25]

On 3/26/2018 at 9:40 PM, Iamcanadian said:

Sorry, but nobody can predict what a prospect at any position, will do at the next level!!! All you can do is rank them as prospects and as prospects, Kelly and Walton do not come into the top 6. It is a very deep RB crop and many will go on to have great careers, maybe Kelly and Walton pass some or all of those rated above them, it happens all the time, but as prospects they do not deserve to be rated too high.

I have liked prospects who weren't even rated in the top 100 by draftniks or most NFL.com ex pro scouts who went on to be drafted as high as round 3, but as prospects,they did not deserve to be ranked too high, even though they went on to have solid pro careers.

Nothing wrong with saying you love a certain prospect and putting his name forward as a potential decent pro, but to argue they deserve to be ranked near the top of their class is not defendable.

I dont understand anything about this post. 

[MSURacerDT55]

13 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Pretty much what I expected.  If this is the "analysis" that I'm going to get out of you, we'll just chalk this up to agreeing to disagree.  If not, I'd love to continue to discuss this.

You make the argument that he's routinely 3-5 yards off the LOS.  That's a schematic issue, not an issue with the player.  So unless you have something to support your argument that him playing off the LOS is on him when the likelihood is that it's probably a scheme call.

I'm not totally sure what you mean by resetting at the LOS.  I'd love for you to expound on that.

You say he only rushes "down the middle" and that couldn't be more false.  At the 0:34 mark, he does a good job converting speed into power, which unfortunately he doesn't consistently show the ability to.  Him pushing the RT back into the QBs lap certainly affected his throw.  He again converts speed into power at the 1:10 mark.

I'm trying to be nice, but your "analysis" is bad.  At least try and support your argument with specific plays (cite times when these things happen at least).  What exactly is your grade on Landry?

That's funny because I coach in real life and know exactly what to look for while watching film. If you cannot understand the terminology and ideologies,  please don't comment or critique those who have a trained eye, it's extremely disingenuous. Be nice to yourself and seek a greater knowledge and understanding of the game and HOW to effectively watch film, thanks. 

 

 

[Da_Ducktator]

5 hours ago, Chwf3rd25 said:

Even as an average/below average athlete it's hard to ignore when someone is as consistently disruptive as Hurst is.  It seems a little unfair to point to 2 games and ignore the rest of his resume.  Its not like he's a small school guy who struggled in his only two games vs D1 opponents.  I think part of people's issue with Hurst is that when he loses it looks worse than when other guys lose.  

The major problem is the way he wins doesn't hold up at the NFL. That's shown by him getting completely erased by Ohio State and Wisconsin in both games the last two years. 

Hurst wins from timing snaps, something that's much easier to do in the college level than the pro level. I just don't see Hurst being anything more than a rotational guy at the next level. Undersized, short arms, average explosiveness, disappeared against the two best O-Lines he faced.

[BleedTheClock]

24 minutes ago, Da_Ducktator said:

The major problem is the way he wins doesn't hold up at the NFL. That's shown by him getting completely erased by Ohio State and Wisconsin in both games the last two years. 

Hurst wins from timing snaps, something that's much easier to do in the college level than the pro level. I just don't see Hurst being anything more than a rotational guy at the next level. Undersized, short arms, average explosiveness, disappeared against the two best O-Lines he faced.

Yeah I'm not a Hurst fan. He's a rotational player and I don't think he's big enough to hold up against the run and lock out NFL OG's or explosive enough to generate a pass rush. He's a nightmare against zone blocking teams that try to move and reach him, but there are so few NFL teams that employ this system. He's easily washed out, trapped, and doubled in power run schemes. I love his motor and tenacity, but there's a real concern that he won't be able to hold up against power guards and tackles.