2019 Draft Talk

[vikingsrule]

43 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

Isn't Rudolph that guy for us? And I'd rather have a guy like Diggs or Thielen who can create instant separation in close quarters rather than a true "jump ball" guy anyway.

Rudolph certainly didn't show that ability last year, or maybe Cousins never looked his way. 

I would also prefer a speedster as the #3, someone who can get open on the outside while Thielen plays the slot.

I thought Robinson was okay in that role, I'd still bring him back as a 4 or 5, but a little more production is preferred. 

I just don't see a need for a big possession receiver, both Thielen and Diggs do well moving the chains and making clutch catches. 

[Dolmonite26]

The whole tall receivers are needed so you can have a jump ball guy is so tiresome.

Hopkins

Beckham

Brown

Green

Jones

Thomas

Thielen

Diggs

Adams

Sanders

Are all some of the best receivers in league and two of them are over 6'3" and the all of the rest are in the 6'1" range or shorter.

All of them are good to great in contested situations and playing through contact. Hell even a midget like Brandin Cooks is much better at these plays then you'd expect. 

You don't need oversized super athletes at the position, just give me good players.

[Ozzy]

46 minutes ago, vikestyle said:

De'Andre Hopkins is right at 6'1" and is probably the best jump ball guy in the league. That dude is incredible. Outside of him, though, there's not a lot of guys I'd just throw 3 straight fades to in the red zone.

Julio Jones, Mike Evans, Michael Thomas, Alshon Jeffrey, Mike Williams, Keenan Allen, Kenny Golladay, Tyler Boyd, Robby Anderson etc.   Larry Fitzgerald has made a Hall of Fame career out of it and is an outstanding jump ball WR who can go get it.  AJ Green, Demaryius Thomas and in not to distant past Dez Bryant as well.  

 

Then you have TEs like Travis Kelce, Rob Gronkowski and Jared Cook who are jump ball threats as well but clearly play more of a TE position but sometimes are out wide in the slot.  Sure not every good jump ball WR is a big tall guy but yeah give me Julio Jones, Michael Thomas and Mike Evans in terms of top go get it jump ball WRs in the NFL, being a physical force who can out muscle defenders to the ball, yeah get inbetween Michael Thomas and the football, good luck, kid is a beast.  

 

Thus would be nice for the Vikings to have a physical WR because they already have the smooth route runner and good hands guys.  I agree though speed would be nice also but I would take a big physical force who can get yards after the catch and go up and get it over a speed only guy.  

 

The up coming draft is full of big physical WRs, some better jump ball guys than others but yeah I would like one of them but again ideally more later in the draft than early.  

N'Keal Harry
DK Metcalf
AJ Brown
JJ Arcega-Whiteside
Kelvin Harmon
Hakeem Butler
Miles Boykin
Anthony Johnson
David Sills
Jalen Hurd
Jazz Ferguson
Antoine Wesley
Jama Custis
Emanuel Hall
Lil'Jordan Humphrey
Felton Davis III
Xavier Ubosi
Jakobi Meyers

 

 

[vikestyle]

2 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Julio Jones, Mike Evans, Michael Thomas, Alshon Jeffrey, Mike Williams, Keenan Allen, Kenny Golladay, Tyler Boyd, Robby Anderson etc.   Larry Fitzgerald has made a Hall of Fame career out of it and is an outstanding jump ball WR who can go get it.  AJ Green, Demaryius Thomas and in not to distant past Dez Bryant as well.  

 

Then you have TEs like Travis Kelce, Rob Gronkowski and Jared Cook who are jump ball threats as well but clearly play more of a TE position but sometimes are out wide in the slot.  Sure not every good jump ball WR is a big tall guy but yeah give me Julio Jones, Michael Thomas and Mike Evans in terms of top go get it jump ball WRs in the NFL, being a physical force who can out muscle defenders to the ball, yeah get inbetween Michael Thomas and the football, good luck, kid is a beast.  

 

Thus would be nice for the Vikings to have a physical WR because they already have the smooth route runner and good hands guys.  I agree though speed would be nice also but I would take a big physical force who can get yards after the catch and go up and get it over a speed only guy.  

The thing is, Thielen and Diggs are two of the best contested catch receivers in the league. I think "jump ball" receivers and contested catch receivers get confused. If you're talking about people who can go get the ball over somebody in all parts of the field, we already have two of the best.

Obviously, it would be nice to get a guy who runs a 4.4, is 6'3", and doesn't drop the ball, but more often than not that type of guy is taken high in round one. Obviously you listed a few exceptions like Mike Thomas, but you are lucky to get one of those in round 2 or later. 

As for a lot of guys you listed, I don't really consider Keenan Allen, Tyler Boyd, or Robby Anderson jump ball guys at all. They're tall, but that not really their game. Fitzgerald is another guy who is a great contested catch guy, but his nuanced route running is what makes him special. It's not really that pure "jump ball" guy you're talking about. And Julio Jones has actually been pretty bad in the red zone.

[Taylor0026]

The draft will be interesting.  Typically a team drafts against their own division for matchups (Vikes NFC north) as well as looking at team needs the following year(Rudolph(TE) a FA at the end of this year or Harris(S) ) , and how strong at  a certain positions will be in next years draft  (DT is deep this year maybe not so much next year.)  How a player fits in the scheme is a big thing in the NFL today.  Either way this will be a important draft as well as next year because at the end of the day this is a 3 year experiment with Cousins.  After that we will more than likely have to rebuild? 

 

[Ozzy]

8 hours ago, vikestyle said:

The thing is, Thielen and Diggs are two of the best contested catch receivers in the league. I think "jump ball" receivers and contested catch receivers get confused. If you're talking about people who can go get the ball over somebody in all parts of the field, we already have two of the best.

Obviously, it would be nice to get a guy who runs a 4.4, is 6'3", and doesn't drop the ball, but more often than not that type of guy is taken high in round one. Obviously you listed a few exceptions like Mike Thomas, but you are lucky to get one of those in round 2 or later. 

As for a lot of guys you listed, I don't really consider Keenan Allen, Tyler Boyd, or Robby Anderson jump ball guys at all. They're tall, but that not really their game. Fitzgerald is another guy who is a great contested catch guy, but his nuanced route running is what makes him special. It's not really that pure "jump ball" guy you're talking about. And Julio Jones has actually been pretty bad in the red zone.

It is all just semantics I suppose, what one calls a jump ball receiver or not.  I guess physical is probably the better word and physical in terms of size being able to get to the football regardless of coverage.  Good hands are good hands, same with good route running but just simply being bigger than the defender is something the Vikings do not have at the WR position.  Thought they would for Treadwell but in many ways he does not fight for the football that well or go up and get the football in the air.

 

Tyler Boyd I think is very smooth and a good high point receiver, not super physical but skilled in making difficult contested catches, same with Robby Anderson.  Allen is more physical than those two are, not as good at high pointing the ball but can physically out fight defenders for the ball.  Fitzgerald can really do it all, and sure his awesome route running helps but the kid can fight for the football in the air as good as anyone despite not amazing speed, and Julio has the speed and the fight, sure might not get TDs as much as some but gets more difficult coverage that most WRs. In the NFL last year 5 out of the top 6 guys in terms of receiving yards were tough physical WRs, and three of them were 6-3 plus, Hill is a speed guy who can of course but Hopkins is physical and so is JuJu along with the other three huge dudes who are super physical and strong.  

 

I think in this draft one could get a big physical dude who runs well in the mid or later rounds.  All of these guys might fall to the 3rd round or later.  Arcege-Whiteside, Butler or Harmon could go round 2, same with Boykin but the rest could easily be there.  Jazz Ferguson is huge and ran very well 4.45 at 6-5, same with Jamal Custis 4.5 at 6-4, Emanuel Hall 4.39 at 6-2, Xavier Ubosi 4.5 at 6-3, Boykin 4.42 at 6-4 not to mention JJ 4.49 at 6-2 or Butler 4.48 at 6-5.  Some ran closer to 4.6 but still are solid players with good size and strength for the position.  Heck a Jalen Hurd would could play WR or RB makes a lot of sense as well 3rd or 4th round.  

 

But sure not everyone would want that, I feel they need it but do not need it in the 1st or 2nd round.  But hey say they took Harry with that 1st round pick, that would be one hell of a WR core no doubt with the hands and jump ball ability he has shown.  Sure he is not as fast as some but 4.53 at 6-2 228 and a 38.5" vertical is impressive and he has a great catch radius.  Does stink the Vikings are so stunk in getting OL help and desperate, they could steal some decent players potentially if they were not so desperate along the OL.  They could steal Ferrell at DE if he drops which he might, or Wilkins or Burns, not to mention long shot get Adderley so the Packers cannot get him even if it is not a position of need really unless they want to move on from Harris after this year.  And again with Harry would be nice or if Hockenson another player drops.  I would not risk it though with that line, OL is a massive need and is almost a must.  

[Dolmonite26]

4 hours ago, Ozzy said:

In the NFL last year 5 out of the top 6 guys in terms of receiving yards were tough physical WRs, and three of them were 6-3 plus, Hill is a speed guy who can of course but Hopkins is physical and so is JuJu along with the other three huge dudes who are super physical and strong.  

You might want to check the height on those players again.

Apologies. Doubled checked myself and realized I was wrong on Thomas, for some reason I thought he was more of a tall 6'1" guy.

However I'm still confused on your overall point. Do you want a big receiver or do you want a guys who is physical at the catch point and can win contested balls?

As has been stated by many, Diggs and Thielen are both very good at those two things. Antonio Brown, Deandre Hopkins, and OBJ set the standard for that skill set, yet two of leagues biggest receivers (Evans and Jones), while both extremely good players, struggle with catching through contact.

You bring up players like Keenan Allen who is neither a physical specimen nor is his game built on winning contested catches (he not bad at it). And a similar argument can be made for Juju however he is a bit of a bully and has that going for him, Cept he's 6'1". Again proving height isnt really a necessity.

Tyler Boyd belongs nowhere near this conversation.

[gopherwrestler]

What’s the difference between Thielen and Boyd? Not seeing the point in this argument. Thielen is the same size as him and wins contested catches at a far higher rate than Boyd.

[Dolmonite26]

God I mean look at Kelvin Benjamin. Dude is a monster and is also terrible. The only way you even get the ball to him is by throwing it up for grabs and sure he can win that situation more often then not (assuming he doesn't drop it), but he can't separate, can't run good routes and is just generally terrible, but oh boy is he big.

I feel like everybody watched Calvin Johnson for 10 years and said, "yep, thats the prototype."........ He's 100% the exception!

[gopherwrestler]

As I’ve said for the past 3 month. Every year lineman are expected to fall, it rarely happens. It’s when talented players start to slip. The one positive is there is enough lineman this year we could still get one at 18. But there will be plenty of talent at other positions for us to snag if they choose to.

[swede700]

Considering Jonah Williams was considered the top OL just a short 2-3 months ago, that's not exactly ground-breaking that he may go in the top 10.  

As I've indicated many times before, I'm not a huge fan of Williams, so I'd certainly be okay with him being off the board at #18, since that makes it far more likely that guys like Ford, Bradbury and Dillard (all who I like over the long-term better) will be there.  

[vikingsrule]

1 minute ago, gopherwrestler said:

As I’ve said for the past 3 month. Every year lineman are expected to fall, it rarely happens. It’s when talented players start to slip. The one positive is there is enough lineman this year we could still get one at 18. But there will be plenty of talent at other positions for us to snag if they choose to.

Just what we need, draft another backup with our first round selection because of value at a non need position. I'd have a hard time believing that Ford, Williams, Bradbury and Dillard will all be off the board by 18, but we shall see.

Seriously feels so long since we've had a first round pick contribute from day one as a starter. When was the last? Anthony Barr?

[gopherwrestler]

Could include Sam Bradford, he started the first day we got him for a 1st round pick 😂

[swede700]

2 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Just what we need, draft another backup with our first round selection because of value at a non need position. I'd have a hard time believing that Ford, Williams, Bradbury and Dillard will all be off the board by 18, but we shall see.

Seriously feels so long since we've had a first round pick contribute from day one as a starter. When was the last? Anthony Barr?

Mike Hughes just last year was basically a starter until he got injured (at least he played often enough to be considered a starter)...but other than him, yes, it was Barr.  

[gopherwrestler]

6 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Just what we need, draft another backup with our first round selection because of value at a non need position. I'd have a hard time believing that Ford, Williams, Bradbury and Dillard will all be off the board by 18, but we shall see.

Seriously feels so long since we've had a first round pick contribute from day one as a starter. When was the last? Anthony Barr?

Oh I doubt they would all be off the table, but if a player like Oliver (highly doubtful) would fall, it would be tough to not take him over someone like Bradberry, in my opinion. 

It’s also more thinking about there could be that chance we package something together to move up in the draft to maybe just go get the guy we want in the draft. 

Maybe its trade back to get the offensive lineman that’s borderline D1/D2 like Risner.

plenty of options to look at.