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Packers Off-season Mini-Camp/Training Camp Discussion Thread

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1 hour ago, TheOnlyThing said:

So much to unpack here.

Datone Jones, Jerrel Worthy, and Khyri Thornton are "good football players"? I'd say most observers currently view them as mediocre talents, at best. (And Datone Jones an instant flop? He was given 4 long years and moved to a completely different position in order to prove the previous GM "drafted a good football player" with his first round pick.)

The truth is Jones, Worthy, and Thornton (1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks, respectively), were all way over drafted given their ensuing "production" in Green Bay and elsewhere.

As for Hyde, he was indeed a good draft pick, a 5th round steal in fact. However, it was apparent his rookie season back in 2013 that his lack of speed coupled with his + ball skills made him a much better Safety candidate than CB, yet the brain trust decided that MD Jennings and Jerron McMillian were better options that year and Hyde was never really given an opportunity to play the position at which he prospered in Buffalo last season. That is not a scheme failure so much as it is a misdiagnosis of talent.

Now regarding Hayward I agree with you. Good football player and good draft pick that Dom had no clue how to properly use as his career progressed.

The reality is that Dom did suck at his job, at least in 2016 and 2017. It is also true that there were a lot of sucky defensive draft picks the past several years.

Plenty of blame to go around for all the defensive failures the past 7 seasons but surely the 2 individuals who must be held most responsible for those failures are the former DC and the former GM.

While some fans may still be gun shy given what transpired on the defensive side of the ball in Green Bay, I have faith that the Gut/Pettine combination will quickly, very quickly, improve the D and hopefully put all of the negativity we experienced on D under the previous GM/DC in the rear view mirror.

Can we please not take this thread in any direction that takes us anywhere near the subject of Khyri Thornton's draft position?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

So much to unpack here.

Datone Jones, Jerrel Worthy, and Khyri Thornton are "good football players"? I'd say most observers currently view them as mediocre talents, at best. (And Datone Jones an instant flop? He was given 4 long years and moved to a completely different position in order to prove the previous GM "drafted a good football player" with his first round pick.)

The truth is Jones, Worthy, and Thornton (1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks, respectively), were all way over drafted given their ensuing "production" in Green Bay and elsewhere.

I'm on the record as hating all three of those picks in real time, so this makes me very happy. 

 

The second statement is ridiculous though. It's literally impossible to draft someone based on their recorded NFL production. You draft prospects, and draft them based on how good of a prospect they are. Derek Sherrod was a bust, but he was not "Overdrafted." Neither was Datone Jones. The other two absolutely were.

Edited by HyponGrey

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I think this is worth posting again for this thread:

DcXchxKU8AEGQ9C.jpg:large

DcXL7OSWkAA9MOZ.jpg:large

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Posted (edited)

Just looking at the athleticism numbers of our UDFA group, it isn't great tbh.

Out of our OL, Austin Davis is the only one that hits all the athleticism thresholds for OL. However having said that Taylor didn't either and he's now our starting guard. Despite his poor 40 the rest of Alex Light numbers is ok, its his short area movement which is what gives him the chance and he also has a slight size/weight advantage over Davis.

The ILBs aren't anything to shout about either. Porter is the fastest running a 4.65 and has a good 3-cone. Parris at only 233lbs ran a slow 4.81 - the time does not match what I see on tape and i'm wondering if he carried an injury in his pro day. Clarence Johnson has an excellent vertical but the rest of his results are average. This year's group is nowhere near the level of athleticism of David Talley who was cut less than a month ago. I've had a quick look at their tapes and they all seem to be downhill types with limited coverage abilities.

The DL are all running 5.00s + times which isn't great. Tyler Lancaster is the heaviest at 313lbs but also the most athletic of the group. Mokofisi numbers are bad considering he weighs only 283lbs. Sheehy is JAG imo- his tape really shows his lack of athleticism, cant run, looks like a OL out there.

Naashon Hughes is the only Edge Rusher out of the UDFA crop. I honestly expected to see more on the list considering we didn't draft one until the 7th round. Athletically he is really uninspiring and had very average production at a top college program. Watching Malik Jefferson's tape you can see that Hughes (#40)  seems comfortable moving around.

Greene, Rader and Boyle are the only other players that plays a different position. Radar's 40 is really bad for a TE. I'm still hoping the Packers will give Damon Gibson the opportunity to join the team at a later date. Raven Greene, where statistics are available, has shown an outstanding knack for interceptions. Athletically he's nothing to shout about but he has enough to build on.

So out of all the UDFA group i'm liking Alex Light, Tyler Lancaster, Marcus Porter and Raven Greene. They would be the guys I expect to make some noise in training camp.

Interesting to see that there are no CB, WR, RB in our FA group. Amazed that we only got one TE.

I think we have two open spots for the tryout guys (3 if we cut our other LS). I haven't looked at any of them yet.

Edited by Chili

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4 hours ago, Chili said:

I think this is worth posting again for this thread:

DcXchxKU8AEGQ9C.jpg:large

DcXL7OSWkAA9MOZ.jpg:large

There, finally, official news about my sister's nephew Conor Sheehy.  It must be a thrill to try out for the team you rooted for growing up.  :)

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1 hour ago, Chili said:

Just looking at the athleticism numbers of our UDFA group, it isn't great tbh.

Out of our OL, Austin Davis is the only one that hits all the athleticism thresholds for OL. However having said that Taylor didn't either and he's now our starting guard. Despite his poor 40 the rest of Alex Light numbers is ok, its his short area movement which is what gives him the chance and he also has a slight size/weight advantage over Davis.

The ILBs aren't anything to shout about either. Porter is the fastest running a 4.65 and has a good 3-cone. Parris at only 233lbs ran a slow 4.81 - the time does not match what I see on tape and i'm wondering if he carried an injury in his pro day. Clarence Johnson has an excellent vertical but the rest of his results are average. This year's group is nowhere near the level of athleticism of David Talley who was cut less than a month ago. I've had a quick look at their tapes and they all seem to be downhill types with limited coverage abilities.

The DL are all running 5.00s + times which isn't great. Tyler Lancaster is the heaviest at 313lbs but also the most athletic of the group. Mokofisi numbers are bad considering he weighs only 283lbs. Sheehy is JAG imo- his tape really shows his lack of athleticism, cant run, looks like a OL out there.

Naashon Hughes is the only Edge Rusher out of the UDFA crop. I honestly expected to see more on the list considering we didn't draft one until the 7th round. Athletically he is really uninspiring and had very average production at a top college program. Watching Malik Jefferson's tape you can see that Hughes (#40)  seems comfortable moving around.

Greene, Rader and Boyle are the only other players that plays a different position. Radar's 40 is really bad for a TE. I'm still hoping the Packers will give Damon Gibson the opportunity to join the team at a later date. Raven Greene, where statistics are available, has shown an outstanding knack for interceptions. Athletically he's nothing to shout about but he has enough to build on.

So out of all the UDFA group i'm liking Austin Davis, Alex Light, Tyler Lancaster and Raven Greene. They would be the guys I expect to make some noise in training camp.

Interesting to see that there are no CB, WR, RB in our FA group. Amazed that we only got one TE.

I think we have two open spots for the tryout guys (3 if we cut our other LS). I haven't looked at any of them yet.

Maybe they should move Conor to guard.  I have a feeling he'll do anything they ask.

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9 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

So much to unpack here.

Datone Jones, Jerrel Worthy, and Khyri Thornton are "good football players"? I'd say most observers currently view them as mediocre talents, at best. (And Datone Jones an instant flop? He was given 4 long years and moved to a completely different position in order to prove the previous GM "drafted a good football player" with his first round pick.)

The truth is Jones, Worthy, and Thornton (1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks, respectively), were all way over drafted given their ensuing "production" in Green Bay and elsewhere.

As for Hyde, he was indeed a good draft pick, a 5th round steal in fact. However, it was apparent his rookie season back in 2013 that his lack of speed coupled with his + ball skills made him a much better Safety candidate than CB, yet the brain trust decided that MD Jennings and Jerron McMillian were better options that year and Hyde was never really given an opportunity to play the position at which he prospered in Buffalo last season. That is not a scheme failure so much as it is a misdiagnosis of talent.

Now regarding Hayward I agree with you. Good football player and good draft pick that Dom had no clue how to properly use as his career progressed.

The reality is that Dom did suck at his job, at least in 2016 and 2017. It is also true that there were a lot of sucky defensive draft picks the past several years.

Plenty of blame to go around for all the defensive failures the past 7 seasons but surely the 2 individuals who must be held most responsible for those failures are the former DC and the former GM.

While some fans may still be gun shy given what transpired on the defensive side of the ball in Green Bay, I have faith that the Gut/Pettine combination will quickly, very quickly, improve the D and hopefully put all of the negativity we experienced on D under the previous GM/DC in the rear view mirror.

Datone Jones was a valuable player in 2015. He was a big part of what made our pressure package so deadly. The ability to line up Jones/Clay/Perry/Peppers was a seriously intimidating front group and spared Daniels having to play too many snaps. There was a role on this team for Datone Jones if he wanted it. He just didn't want it. You can call that a failed evaluation of character, but when college coaches are giving guys 2 thumbs up and you only get to interview him a few times, it's tough. Guys change between the ages of 21 and 25 even when they're not handed millions of dollars. 

Worthy blew out his knee the last game of his rookie year and it cost him something. He was always a snap jumper/first step guy. Losing that first step killed him. He's still bouncing around the league as a big body but 2nd round DTs can't lose what makes them special. 

Khyrie Thorton is another guy who just didn't want it. There's a very serious lack of guys with NFL athletic profiles at the DT position. it's not like WR or CB where there's a billion guys of that body-type and you're splitting hairs for skill. If you're going to draft a DT with high upside in the 3rd round, you're going to have to accept those risks. Additionally, third round picks have a "cut before second contract" rate around 55% IIRC.  Not saying it isn't a bad pick, but you can't complain about the lack of superstar talent on defense and then bash the high risk midround picks for a failure of philosophy.

+++

Regarding the Hyde playing in the slot in 2013, who was supposed to play there? Hayward was "healthy" enough to play in 3 games. The DB rotation was Shields/Tramon/Hayward/House/Hyde. Hyde was supposed to be bouncing between slot and safety all season. Then Hayward got IR'd and all of a sudden you needed a slot CB. CB is more important than safety, so the better talent goes to CB. In an ideal world, Hayward stays healthy, all three of our CBs look good, Hyde carries heavy reps at Safety and starts to stand out while not being bounced from spot to spot. 

In an ideal world though, we don't stack injuries at OLB such that Andy Mulumba is playing 29% of snaps, BJ Raji doesn't phone it in for good, Tramon Williams and AJ Hawk don't lose their legs, and we don't lose 10 games of Matthews and Perry. There were a lot of things that impacted the 2013 season outside of coaching and talent acquisition. 

Hayward was never healthy for us. He played well while he was here, but the team kept getting injured, lacked speed, and it was apparent that Hayward couldn't play unprotected on the boundary. When you're trying to get faster and more durable, guys like Hayward get moved on from. Drafting Rollins and Randall was supposed to solve that issue. Rollins never really looked the part, but I don't know how you evaluate him considering he was never god damn healthy. Looking at the athletic profile and what guys (admittedly older guys) tend to lose with the achilies injury, his career is probably over. Randall played well at times, but was inconsistent, had his own health issues, and apparently was a locker room cancer? He's now gone as well.

Dom Capers is a good coach. I know that's a controversial statement, but it's true. With him as DC, we averaged 15th in points allowed over the course of his 9 seasons. When you don't have consistent pieces to work with, it's hard to formulate anything. I can see why Capers would like guys like Hawk and Pickett, at least they were there every day. When the wheels were starting to fall off in 2016 and 2017, take a look at the god damn injury reports. In both years the secondary depth chart and the listing of out/probable was a freaking one to one match. Luck plays a big part in these things. He needed to go, I don't dispute that, too many poor seasons (even if they're not entirely his fault) and guys start to lose credibility and confidence. Sometimes a new voice is needed. 

Thompson wasn't a bad GM either. He was a very good GM. He was also a very conservative GM. He was a big believer in the importance of staying the course and maximizing opportunities. We caught some lousy luck with upshoot teams shining bright and then fading quickly in SF/Seattle (and to a lesser extent Carolina). We had terrible injury luck both to the defense and to Rodgers. We had an optics problem with a relatively maxed out roster and a lack of Free Agent signings, both due to inside interest and playing in a frozen subtropolis.

It's easy to write off all of the previous seasons problems on guys that are gone. Fans of teams do it all the time, but you're downplaying the impact that lousy luck had on these teams. That luck may very well stick with the current administration. If King, Perry and Alexander go down this year for significant periods of time, we're going to have the same defensive problems that haunted us the previous few seasons. 

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7 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Datone Jones was a valuable player in 2015. He was a big part of what made our pressure package so deadly. The ability to line up Jones/Clay/Perry/Peppers was a seriously intimidating front group and spared Daniels having to play too many snaps. There was a role on this team for Datone Jones if he wanted it. He just didn't want it. You can call that a failed evaluation of character, but when college coaches are giving guys 2 thumbs up and you only get to interview him a few times, it's tough. Guys change between the ages of 21 and 25 even when they're not handed millions of dollars. 

Worthy blew out his knee the last game of his rookie year and it cost him something. He was always a snap jumper/first step guy. Losing that first step killed him. He's still bouncing around the league as a big body but 2nd round DTs can't lose what makes them special. 

Khyrie Thorton is another guy who just didn't want it. There's a very serious lack of guys with NFL athletic profiles at the DT position. it's not like WR or CB where there's a billion guys of that body-type and you're splitting hairs for skill. If you're going to draft a DT with high upside in the 3rd round, you're going to have to accept those risks. Additionally, third round picks have a "cut before second contract" rate around 55% IIRC.  Not saying it isn't a bad pick, but you can't complain about the lack of superstar talent on defense and then bash the high risk midround picks for a failure of philosophy.

+++

Regarding the Hyde playing in the slot in 2013, who was supposed to play there? Hayward was "healthy" enough to play in 3 games. The DB rotation was Shields/Tramon/Hayward/House/Hyde. Hyde was supposed to be bouncing between slot and safety all season. Then Hayward got IR'd and all of a sudden you needed a slot CB. CB is more important than safety, so the better talent goes to CB. In an ideal world, Hayward stays healthy, all three of our CBs look good, Hyde carries heavy reps at Safety and starts to stand out while not being bounced from spot to spot. 

In an ideal world though, we don't stack injuries at OLB such that Andy Mulumba is playing 29% of snaps, BJ Raji doesn't phone it in for good, Tramon Williams and AJ Hawk don't lose their legs, and we don't lose 10 games of Matthews and Perry. There were a lot of things that impacted the 2013 season outside of coaching and talent acquisition. 

Hayward was never healthy for us. He played well while he was here, but the team kept getting injured, lacked speed, and it was apparent that Hayward couldn't play unprotected on the boundary. When you're trying to get faster and more durable, guys like Hayward get moved on from. Drafting Rollins and Randall was supposed to solve that issue. Rollins never really looked the part, but I don't know how you evaluate him considering he was never god damn healthy. Looking at the athletic profile and what guys (admittedly older guys) tend to lose with the achilies injury, his career is probably over. Randall played well at times, but was inconsistent, had his own health issues, and apparently was a locker room cancer? He's now gone as well.

Dom Capers is a good coach. I know that's a controversial statement, but it's true. With him as DC, we averaged 15th in points allowed over the course of his 9 seasons. When you don't have consistent pieces to work with, it's hard to formulate anything. I can see why Capers would like guys like Hawk and Pickett, at least they were there every day. When the wheels were starting to fall off in 2016 and 2017, take a look at the god damn injury reports. In both years the secondary depth chart and the listing of out/probable was a freaking one to one match. Luck plays a big part in these things. He needed to go, I don't dispute that, too many poor seasons (even if they're not entirely his fault) and guys start to lose credibility and confidence. Sometimes a new voice is needed. 

Thompson wasn't a bad GM either. He was a very good GM. He was also a very conservative GM. He was a big believer in the importance of staying the course and maximizing opportunities. We caught some lousy luck with upshoot teams shining bright and then fading quickly in SF/Seattle (and to a lesser extent Carolina). We had terrible injury luck both to the defense and to Rodgers. We had an optics problem with a relatively maxed out roster and a lack of Free Agent signings, both due to inside interest and playing in a frozen subtropolis.

It's easy to write off all of the previous seasons problems on guys that are gone. Fans of teams do it all the time, but you're downplaying the impact that lousy luck had on these teams. That luck may very well stick with the current administration. If King, Perry and Alexander go down this year for significant periods of time, we're going to have the same defensive problems that haunted us the previous few seasons. 

Great post

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28 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Blah blah blah

Idiot post.  Everybody knows that if you can pick out 10 1st-3rd round picks that didn't work out over a 13 year span, you're a terrible GM.  What an absolutely stupid post.  You should be ashamed of yourself.  Thornton is obviously a blemish that cannot be topped. 

Seriously though, I'm so, so, so, so sick of the persistence of Thompson hate. 

@TheOnlyThing, name any GM in the history of football and I will show you more (or worse) 1st-3rd round busts that those GMs had than Thompson.  Minimum 5 year career as a GM.  That's fair, right?  Alternate proposal: Admit that you are incapable of perspective and that you refuse to acknowledge that the draft is not an exact science and that Thompson managed to have one of the highest success rates in the draft relative to draft position since the AFL-NFL merger. 

 

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Lol this is the most negative thread I’ve ever seen for day one of a rookie camp.

 

Never change

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Interested to see if they keep Marcus Bryan now that Gibson seems like a lost cause and they only have 5 TEs.  

He was a basketball player in college, but a 6'7" 250ish lb athlete seems like he could be an interesting project.

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6 hours ago, Chili said:

I think this is worth posting again for this thread:

DcXchxKU8AEGQ9C.jpg:large

DcXL7OSWkAA9MOZ.jpg:large

Gute loves big humans, look at that list, 6'3" on average. This roster is gonna be freaking huge I like it.

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4 minutes ago, Reaper said:

What happened to Gibson?

No idea. Probably failed his physical.

This has happened to players in the past only to come back in time for training camp so here's hoping that will be the case for us.

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