2018 Draft Eligible Non-Rush DL Thread

[Iamcanadian]

7 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Not a huge fan of some of these guys late at DT.  Also could argue Trenton Thompson and Andrew Brown are 3/4 DEs not a true DE, maybe even with RJ McIntosh as well.  Poona Ford could be of value mid round I feel, not a great athlete but surprising production inside this past year I thought.  Steven Richardson could be a steal with the poor system he played in this year, as a JR he was a lot better getting to the QB, even did better as a FR and SOPH than this past year.  Kendrick Norton is decent talent mid to late round, Stallworth I like and Lotulelei has ability, Breeland Speaks is arguably the most productive but is more of a 3/4 DE I feel.  Tyler Lancaster could be a nice late round pick but some view him as a possible OL, and Christian LaCouture is ok but never was amazed by his play on the field, ok workout though with nice bench numbers. 

 

PJ Hall is very interesting, that workout is amazing at 310 with 4.76 speed and 36 bench.  Crazy impressive and plays with great effort, he could easily be gone by the 2nd or 3rd round with that kind of workout and size.  On tape though he is not really that strong, against NDSU in the semifinal he did little to nothing at all against that very solid pro style front and offense.  They just ran all over that D and Hall did not show up much what so ever.

 

Does have very impressive stats though but obviously not against elite competition.

2014 24 TFL 12 Sacks, 93 Tackles, 5 Blocked Kicks

2015 19 TFL 11 Sacks, 75 Tackles, 5 Blocked Kicks

2016 24.5 TFL 13 Sacks, 56 Tackles

2017 19 TFL 6 Sacks, 60 Tackles, 4 Blocked Kicks

 

So total 86.5 TFL and 42 Sacks in four year career.

 

Super impressive block kick numbers though that is for sure.  But the tape against NDSU again was not anything special at all.  Could not get off the block often, did not get much push and struggled against the run.  Will be interesting where he goes for sure.

In football, player still play when they are banged up with minor injuries and it can really effect their effort for a game or 2, or even for a whole season. Not saying that is what happened to Hall, but you just never know, but the pro scouts will have the real inside info and they will go from there!

[Iamcanadian]

14 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Fantastic news for Hurst's draft stock IMO.

 

He could be a real steal in round 2, teams like NE will often take a shot, knowing he might have been a real high pick if there were no red flags and that is how they got Gronk. It is the only way successful team get a shot at top talent, so for them it is always worth the risk!!!

[MSURacerDT55]

14 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Also could argue Trenton Thompson and Andrew Brown are 3/4 DEs not a true DE, maybe even with RJ McIntosh as well. 

I had them as possible 3 techs due to the lack of elite 3 techs in this class

 

14 hours ago, Ozzy said:

PJ Hall is very interesting, that workout is amazing at 310 with 4.76 speed and 36 bench.  Crazy impressive and plays with great effort, he could easily be gone by the 2nd or 3rd round with that kind of workout and size.  On tape though he is not really that strong, against NDSU in the semifinal he did little to nothing at all against that very solid pro style front and offense.  They just ran all over that D and Hall did not show up much what so ever.

 

Does have very impressive stats though but obviously not against elite competition.

2014 24 TFL 12 Sacks, 93 Tackles, 5 Blocked Kicks

2015 19 TFL 11 Sacks, 75 Tackles, 5 Blocked Kicks

2016 24.5 TFL 13 Sacks, 56 Tackles

2017 19 TFL 6 Sacks, 60 Tackles, 4 Blocked Kicks

 

So total 86.5 TFL and 42 Sacks in four year career.

 

Super impressive block kick numbers though that is for sure.  But the tape against NDSU again was not anything special at all.  Could not get off the block often, did not get much push and struggled against the run.  Will be interesting where he goes for sure.

Also a 38 inch vert, I wouldn't worry about lack of elite competition, he couldn't control that, he just controlled what he did on the field. As far as the NDSU game, it doesn't effect the skill set that he has in reference to the next level, if he can play, he can play, a good or bad game against NDSU won't change it.

 

12 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I agree, Phillips is awesome and totally worth a 1st round pick.  Outside of Vea and Payne he is easily the best DT in the draft.  Great motor and really is a productive tackler from his DT spot which is rare, helps show the effort he plays with.  

You are definitely entitled to your opinion but Phillips is a try hard guy to me, nothing special, for what you use in a 1st round pick on him you can get the same guy that does what he does in the 5th or later.To be honest, unathletic, strong, try hard guys can be found on the street if you want to be honest. He is no different than a Mitch Unrein, Nick Hayden,Jamie Meder, Henry Anderson, Ryan Glasgow. 

 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

I had them as possible 3 techs due to the lack of elite 3 techs in this class

 

Also a 38 inch vert, I wouldn't worry about lack of elite competition, he couldn't control that, he just controlled what he did on the field. As far as the NDSU game, it doesn't effect the skill set that he has in reference to the next level, if he can play, he can play, a good or bad game against NDSU won't change it.

 

You are definitely entitled to your opinion but Phillips is a try hard guy to me, nothing special, for what you use in a 1st round pick on him you can get the same guy that does what he does in the 5th or later.To be honest, unathletic, strong, try hard guys can be found on the street if you want to be honest. He is no different than a Mitch Unrein, Nick Hayden,Jamie Meder, Henry Anderson, Ryan Glasgow. 

 

To compare Phillips to the guys you did, well that is an insult.  Some of those guys are barely even in the NFL and Phillips is not just a strong man.  He uses his hands extremely well, can get off blocks and get after the ball carrier and get after the QB.  He is more than just a strong guy.  Sure maybe he is a 2nd rounder but regardless he should have a solid NFL career. 

" unathletic, strong, try hard guys can be found on the street"  What the heck are you talking about?  Go ask Bock Lesnar how that worked and he had some damn good measurables and was an accomplished wrestler of course in college.  He did not exactly rip up the NFL, much less get a guy on the  freaking street who can play in the NFL who is strong and tries hard, come on.

 

 

As for PJ Hall playing poorly in the biggest game of the season against the best competition he faced all year in terms of a OL arguably, well yeah it means something.  He got pushed off the ball easily and did not impact the game and struggled against the run.  One would think with his athletic ability he could control the OL a lot more than he did and get much more of a push and make more of an impact.  Sure maybe was just a poor game but does show something.  Still athletically of course he is a very interesting player with those numbers and well worth a mid round look.  Still would like to see some more power from him and ability to drive guys backwards, not just make effort plays down field and being able to run after the ball carrier.  Does have to show some more at the actual point of attack in my book, but as a project DT could be extremely interesting of course.

[MSURacerDT55]

3 hours ago, Ozzy said:

To compare Phillips to the guys you did, well that is an insult.  Some of those guys are barely even in the NFL and Phillips is not just a strong man.  He uses his hands extremely well, can get off blocks and get after the ball carrier and get after the QB.  He is more than just a strong guy.  Sure maybe he is a 2nd rounder but regardless he should have a solid NFL career. 

" unathletic, strong, try hard guys can be found on the street"  What the heck are you talking about?  Go ask Bock Lesnar how that worked and he had some damn good measurables and was an accomplished wrestler of course in college.  He did not exactly rip up the NFL, much less get a guy on the  freaking street who can play in the NFL who is strong and tries hard, come on.

 

 

As for PJ Hall playing poorly in the biggest game of the season against the best competition he faced all year in terms of a OL arguably, well yeah it means something.  He got pushed off the ball easily and did not impact the game and struggled against the run.  One would think with his athletic ability he could control the OL a lot more than he did and get much more of a push and make more of an impact.  Sure maybe was just a poor game but does show something.  Still athletically of course he is a very interesting player with those numbers and well worth a mid round look.  Still would like to see some more power from him and ability to drive guys backwards, not just make effort plays down field and being able to run after the ball carrier.  Does have to show some more at the actual point of attack in my book, but as a project DT could be extremely interesting of course.

Take a look at what you are saying, you are saying an unathletic, slow 6-4 300lb who is too slow for 3 tech and undersized for a 1-Tech/Nose is worthy of a first round pick...no 

Teams want more bang for their buck bro, sorry

As far as Hall, you would like to see more power? watch more games, and I guess his 700lb squat and 36 reps aren't good enough. Also you are putting way too much weight onto one game which is a recipe for disaster rather than looking at whats right in front of you. Derek Carr bombed his supposed big game against USC and is doing pretty fine. Also what about when Hall had 7 tackles and a TFL against LSU? isn't that a big game? Or how about when he has 8 tackles 3.5 tfls and 1.5 sacks against eventual national champion James Madison in the FCS playoffs? And call it what you want, he still had 5 tackles and an Int that game against NDSU. Its almost like you pick the worst game he had to make an assessment which is...come on...

[jrry32]

2 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Take a look at what you are saying, you are saying an unathletic, slow 6-4 300lb who is too slow for 3 tech and undersized for a 1-Tech/Nose is worthy of a first round pick...no 

Teams want more bang for their buck bro, sorry

Gotta agree. I actually really loved the idea of Harrison Phillips to the Rams if they traded down to the mid-2nd before they signed Suh. He would have been a great fit at NT in Wade's scheme. However, he's a plodder with heavy feet. Don't get me wrong, I think he's going to be a quality NFL player, but I don't see the potential for him to be a guy like Aaron Donald, Suh, Geno Atkins, Sheldon Richardson, Kawaan Short, etc. He's not going to be an All Pro caliber player. He strikes me as a glue guy. I like him as a 0-tech in an aggressive odd front or a 1-tech in an even front. He doesn't have the juice to be a true difference-maker as a 3-tech. He could also play 5-tech in a traditional, two-gap even front. 

I like a lot of things about Phillips' game. He has heavy, violent hands; he's ridiculously strong in his upper body; he has great instincts and an outstanding understanding of blocking schemes; he's quite adept at finding the football while engaged before disengaging to make the tackle; and he's incredibly skilled at changing positioning and winning when hand-fighting, which makes it very difficult for OLs to win the "war" even if they win the initial battle on each snap. However, he's heavy-legged and has a higher center of gravity than you'd like. That leads to some balance issues and limits him in the open field. To me, Phillips is a guy who will be a very good/great run defender and a solid pass rusher. In the passing game, he'll collapse the pocket well when in 1 on 1s, he'll win quickly at times with intelligence, skill, and heavy hands (especially his arm-over swim move), and he'll bring it every down in terms of effort and tenaciousness. Nevertheless, finishing won't be easy for him, especially with athletic QBs. In the running game, he'll be a rock, though. I'd say his impact and versatility will be most similar to Michael Brockers or Timmy Jernigan. I'd say his ceiling is a guy like Aaron Smith or Derek Wolfe. The thing about all of those names is that all are quality or better starters, but all are (or were) also unheralded for the work they do/did. I like Phillips, but I see him as a guy who excels at doing the dirty work, rather than the splash plays that get you noticed.

[BleedTheClock]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Gotta agree. I actually really loved the idea of Harrison Phillips to the Rams if they traded down to the mid-2nd before they signed Suh. He would have been a great fit at NT in Wade's scheme. However, he's a plodder with heavy feet. Don't get me wrong, I think he's going to be a quality NFL player, but I don't see the potential for him to be a guy like Aaron Donald, Suh, Geno Atkins, Sheldon Richardson, Kawaan Short, etc. He's not going to be an All Pro caliber player. He strikes me as a glue guy. I like him as a 0-tech in an aggressive odd front or a 1-tech in an even front. He doesn't have the juice to be a true difference-maker as a 3-tech. He could also play 5-tech in a traditional, two-gap even front. 

I like a lot of things about Phillips' game. He has heavy, violent hands; he's ridiculously strong in his upper body; he has great instincts and an outstanding understanding of blocking schemes; he's quite adept at finding the football while engaged before disengaging to make the tackle; and he's incredibly skilled at changing positioning and winning when hand-fighting, which makes it very difficult for OLs to win the "war" even if they win the initial battle on each snap. However, he's heavy-legged and has a higher center of gravity than you'd like. That leads to some balance issues and limits him in the open field. To me, Phillips is a guy who will be a very good/great run defender and a solid pass rusher. In the passing game, he'll collapse the pocket well when in 1 on 1s, he'll win quickly at times with intelligence, skill, and heavy hands (especially his arm-over swim move), and he'll bring it every down in terms of effort and tenaciousness. Nevertheless, finishing won't be easy for him, especially with athletic QBs. In the running game, he'll be a rock, though. I'd say his impact and versatility will be most similar to Michael Brockers or Timmy Jernigan. I'd say his ceiling is a guy like Aaron Smith or Derek Wolfe. The thing about all of those names is that all are quality or better starters, but all are (or were) also unheralded for the work they do/did. I like Phillips, but I see him as a guy who excels at doing the dirty work, rather than the splash plays that get you noticed.

Domata Peko/Stephen Paea. Not worthy of a top 50 selection IMO.

[jrry32]

Just now, BleedTheClock said:

Domata Peko/Stephen Paea. Not worthy of a top 50 selection IMO.

Nah, he's a lot stouter than Paea against the run, and he's more gifted than Peko at making plays.

[HTTRDynasty]

55 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Gotta agree. I actually really loved the idea of Harrison Phillips to the Rams if they traded down to the mid-2nd before they signed Suh. He would have been a great fit at NT in Wade's scheme. However, he's a plodder with heavy feet. Don't get me wrong, I think he's going to be a quality NFL player, but I don't see the potential for him to be a guy like Aaron Donald, Suh, Geno Atkins, Sheldon Richardson, Kawaan Short, etc. He's not going to be an All Pro caliber player. He strikes me as a glue guy. I like him as a 0-tech in an aggressive odd front or a 1-tech in an even front. He doesn't have the juice to be a true difference-maker as a 3-tech. He could also play 5-tech in a traditional, two-gap even front. 

I like a lot of things about Phillips' game. He has heavy, violent hands; he's ridiculously strong in his upper body; he has great instincts and an outstanding understanding of blocking schemes; he's quite adept at finding the football while engaged before disengaging to make the tackle; and he's incredibly skilled at changing positioning and winning when hand-fighting, which makes it very difficult for OLs to win the "war" even if they win the initial battle on each snap. However, he's heavy-legged and has a higher center of gravity than you'd like. That leads to some balance issues and limits him in the open field. To me, Phillips is a guy who will be a very good/great run defender and a solid pass rusher. In the passing game, he'll collapse the pocket well when in 1 on 1s, he'll win quickly at times with intelligence, skill, and heavy hands (especially his arm-over swim move), and he'll bring it every down in terms of effort and tenaciousness. Nevertheless, finishing won't be easy for him, especially with athletic QBs. In the running game, he'll be a rock, though. I'd say his impact and versatility will be most similar to Michael Brockers or Timmy Jernigan. I'd say his ceiling is a guy like Aaron Smith or Derek Wolfe. The thing about all of those names is that all are quality or better starters, but all are (or were) also unheralded for the work they do/did. I like Phillips, but I see him as a guy who excels at doing the dirty work, rather than the splash plays that get you noticed.

Sounds like the perfect 2nd round pick for the Skins if we don't get Hankins, Vea, or Payne before that.

[Ozzy]

3 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Take a look at what you are saying, you are saying an unathletic, slow 6-4 300lb who is too slow for 3 tech and undersized for a 1-Tech/Nose is worthy of a first round pick...no 

Teams want more bang for their buck bro, sorry

As far as Hall, you would like to see more power? watch more games, and I guess his 700lb squat and 36 reps aren't good enough. Also you are putting way too much weight onto one game which is a recipe for disaster rather than looking at whats right in front of you. Derek Carr bombed his supposed big game against USC and is doing pretty fine. Also what about when Hall had 7 tackles and a TFL against LSU? isn't that a big game? Or how about when he has 8 tackles 3.5 tfls and 1.5 sacks against eventual national champion James Madison in the FCS playoffs? And call it what you want, he still had 5 tackles and an Int that game against NDSU. Its almost like you pick the worst game he had to make an assessment which is...come on...

Oh and LSU game they gave up well over 300 yards rushing, yeah he was a real force there.  The kid is a nice prospect, and put up some amazing numbers in his workout but there is a disconnect from that to his tape I feel.  Sure the NDSU game is just one game but it can show a lot and does factor in.   He has crazy numbers for sure in terms of production throughout.   Oh but he looked great against Incarnate Word playing more of a DE position, as if that means much.  Honestly he might be best as a 3/4 DT and absolutely not as a true DT in a 4/3 but will see.  

 

Still there is not many crazy successful DTs in the NFL who came from such small schools.  Most other positions have those examples, DT is one of the few where look at the Pro Bowl DTs the past few years, none are small school guys like Sam Houston State.  

 

 

And who is calling Harrison Phillips Geno Atkins or Aaron Donald?  I think he is a very quality player, no one said absolute elite All Pro DT.  I would take him over Sheldon Rankins any day and he was a 1st round pick, high at that.  Get what you need, and if teams in the bottom half of the first need a run stopping DT get Phillips if he is there.

 

Oh but get this guy, look at his explosive athletic numbers...

At 6-2 285

40 in 4.7

35 Vertical

30 reps at 225

 

Oh that was Brock Lesnar, aka guy off the street who was a NCAA wrestling champion.  

 

[jrry32]

23 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Still there is not many crazy successful DTs in the NFL who came from such small schools.  Most other positions have those examples, DT is one of the few where look at the Pro Bowl DTs the past few years, none are small school guys like Sam Houston State.  

Snacks Harrison - William Penn

Brandon Williams - Missouri Southern State

Larry Ogunjobi - Charlotte

Akiem Hicks - Regina

Ogunjobi hasn't been to a Pro Bowl yet, but he was a 3rd round pick last year, and Browns fans are very excited about what he did as a rookie. And if we want to go back further, John Randle is a pretty obvious name that stands out.

[Ozzy]

4 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Snacks Harrison - William Penn

Brandon Williams - Missouri Southern State

Larry Ogunjobi - Charlotte

Akiem Hicks - Regina

Ogunjobi hasn't been to a Pro Bowl yet, but he was a 3rd round pick last year, and Browns fans are very excited about what he did as a rookie. And if we want to go back further, John Randle is a pretty obvious name that stands out.

Ok group but none are Pro Bowlers, sure maybe one day but not at the moment and two are NTs mostly their for their massive size obviously.  Just saying does not happen often at all especially at the DT position if you are talking absolute elite level talent.

 

Sure John Randle was a Hall of Famer, but that is going a little ways back, he was drafted in 1990, that was 28 years ago.  Also note said past few years, not in the history of football.  Sure Joe Greene went to North Texas and Buck Buchanan went to Grambling but not sure those are relevant examples.  Will see if Hill can become an elite player and where he ultimately gets picked up.  I remember Brandon Kennedy, really productive DT from North Texas who had a ton of TFLs and sacks in his career, was stocky though 5-10 300+.  Still even he played at the D-1A level and North Texas was not enough to give him quality consistent reps over time inside. 

 

 

 

[jrry32]

16 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Ok group but none are Pro Bowlers, sure maybe one day but not at the moment and two are NTs mostly their for their massive size obviously.  Just saying does not happen often at all especially at the DT position if you are talking absolute elite level talent.

 

Sure John Randle was a Hall of Famer, but that is going a little ways back, he was drafted in 1990, that was 28 years ago.  Also note said past few years, not in the history of football.  Sure Joe Greene went to North Texas and Buck Buchanan went to Grambling but not sure those are relevant examples.  Will see if Hill can become an elite player and where he ultimately gets picked up.  I remember Brandon Kennedy, really productive DT from North Texas who had a ton of TFLs and sacks in his career, was stocky though 5-10 300+.  Still even he played at the D-1A level and North Texas was not enough to give him quality consistent reps over time inside. 

Damon Harrison was an All Pro in 2016. Brandon Williams is easily a Pro Bowl caliber player. The same is true of Akiem Hicks, who has averaged 54 tackles and 8 sacks over the past two years. Your point was a terrible and weak one. P.J. Hall isn't in the running to be a first round pick. You're not weighing taking him over Vea. He's likely to go in the 4th round. He doesn't need to be an elite talent to have panned out.

[BleedTheClock]

47 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Ok group but none are Pro Bowlers

Who gives a flying F about the pro bowl votes for NT's? All of the guys listed are stud DT's that would all go in the 1st round in re-drafts. Those guys are beyond "ok".

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

Damon Harrison was an All Pro in 2016. Brandon Williams is easily a Pro Bowl caliber player. The same is true of Akiem Hicks, who has averaged 54 tackles and 8 sacks over the past two years. Your point was a terrible and weak one. P.J. Hall isn't in the running to be a first round pick. You're not weighing taking him over Vea. He's likely to go in the 4th round. He doesn't need to be an elite talent to have panned out.

That is fine you believe that, I do not.  Sure currently they seem like ok players but I do not believe long term they will be looked back on as being that great of talents at NT.  Sure Hicks had two great years this past season but ultimately will see if he can keep that up for three to four more seasons in a row.  Will see on them all, kind of like Dontari Poe, used to be who would not want this guy, now he has kind of tailed off and has switched teams three times in three years now.  Then again a lot of players are moving around more than usual.

 

If you want to talk elite NTs since it has come up with Harrison and Brandon Williams.  I would go with these guys all day over the current ones around the league.  But sure if you view them as really elite players, go ahead, not really any better NTs out there who are better but does not mean they are these great talents.  Maybe I underrate them though but still would take these guys over them all day and should be the bar for a top NT, especially the top 4-5 guys.  

 

 

Vince Wilfork

Casey Hampton

Haloti Ngata

Ted Washington

Sam Adams

Jay Ratliff

Pat Williams

Jamal Williams

Dan Wilkinson

BJ Raji (when healthy)

 

But still it is not that easy to just go and get all these amazing FCS DTs, but oh go ahead and do so anyway based on these guys, oh and Chris Baker, Zach Kerr and Javon Hargrave.  

 

And I talked elite talent because originally was the ripping on Harrison Phillips for not being an elite talent.  Then you have PJ Hall with these elite talent type athletic numbers for a DT his size even though not sure the tape matches it.  And sure those numbers for a big guy are rare, like Geno Atkins or Aaron Donald type rare but not sure PJ Hall will ever match that kind of production regardless of how fast he can run the 40 or how much he can bench press.