Top 10 Players Overall

[DoleINGout]

2 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

This is the biggest crock of crap I've heard on this forum in awhile. 

Well, seeing as TB12 was the only quarterback in the NFL not at voluntary OTA's and reportedly grappled with retirement after the Super Bowl loss, (would have if he won), there's actually a bit of truth stirring around in that crock of yours. Brady has been vastly different this off-season if you paid any attention so far, and not because his commitment to football improved from what it already was. The Facebook series Brady put out ends with him questioning the priorities in his life. Brady has been putting football first his entire career but now his family comes first. The fact that Brady is going out of his way to send a message to everyone in the Patriots organization about his priorities in life by doing things openly on his own terms leads me to question how his performance will be affected going forward.

[SmittyBacall]

8 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

Well, seeing as TB12 was the only quarterback in the NFL not at voluntary OTA's and reportedly grappled with retirement after the Super Bowl loss, (would have if he won), there's actually a bit of truth stirring around in that crock of yours. Brady has been vastly different this off-season if you paid any attention so far, and not because his commitment to football improved from what it already was. The Facebook series Brady put out ends with him questioning the priorities in his life. Brady has been putting football first his entire career but now his family comes first. The fact that Brady is going out of his way to send a message to everyone in the Patriots organization about his priorities in life by doing things openly on his own terms leads me to question how his performance will be affected going forward.

Okay, then I'll bite for an explanation to this theory. In what ways do you see his decline of interest manifest itself? Is he now more indifferent to winning on Sundays? Is he going to spend less time taking care of his body, practicing or evaluating defenses? What percentage of effort is he going to bring compared to years past? 90%? 60%?

You're talking about one of if not the most ultra-competitive, fiery, all-about-winning competitors the league has seen at QB. You think he's going to come back at half speed after contemplating retirement? And of course he's going to contemplate retirement. He's forty with 3 kids! You questioning his commitment is absurd. 

Quote

“I love playing and I want to keep going, ’cause I think there’s more to achieve and I still think I can play at a really high level,” Brady told PEOPLE at the time. “As long as I’m willing to make the commitment, my family gets the time they need, [then] hopefully I can keep playing the game I love.”

Quote

“My kids are 10, 8 and 5. They’re not getting younger, so I need to take time so I can be available to them, too,” Brady said, according to ESPN. “I’ve really spent the last two or three months doing those things, and I think I’m really trying to fill my tank up so that when I do go back, I can go back and I think I’ll actually be, in my mind, a better player, a better teammate, because I’ll be really rejuvenated.”

https://people.com/sports/tom-brady-gets-real-work-life-balance/

[DoleINGout]

9 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

In what ways do you see his decline of interest manifest itself?

Offensive line isn't solidified due to injuries guys are coming back from, (RT Marcus Cannon, LG Joe Thuney, LT/LG Isaiah Wynn, OT Trenton Brown). The wide receivers have the same issue, (Julian Edelman, Malcolm Mitchell, Chris Hogan). Aside from Jeremy Hill, none of the Patriots current running backs have started more than eight games in a single season. Along the line of injuries, rookie Sony Michel supposedly has some type of degenerative knee condition that could limit his longevity and use. The tight ends are a fantastic group but their best player, Rob Gronkowski, also skipped voluntary OTA's like Brady and has essentially been on the trade block until recently. Offensive coordinatoe Josh McDaniels is mediocre at best but was brought back by Robert Kraft personally last minute because of his relationship with Tom Brady and the window of opportunity to win a Super Bowl being extended only one more season in theory by the loss against the Eagles when Brady would have retired had he won. Now Brady, who has been the professional benchmark to transcend his own sport, is opposed to voluntary team practices and is seeking not only a large contract extension to compensate for the frustration he has with Bill Belichick and his teams culture. Brady is now letting his ego drive his actions and I'm afraid it will be just the cherry on top of everything else which will contribute to his decline in production. Plus he is turning 41 in August and can only be so smart before the chemistry with his new teammates is tested and adjustments need to be made in order to correct anything that goes wrong and ultimately produce like he is used to.

Look, Brady has said he intends on playing this season. If he honors his commitment and plays, he will obviously set his goal to be the Super Bowl champion again. He will remain super competitive in moments like he has before but he's already proven to be less engaged in the off-season with the details to practicing that helped refine him and his teammates in the past which really helps make him so great. This is not to say he will drop off drastically and be terrible, but less consistently elite and thus closer to average.

[AkronsWitness]

On 6/21/2018 at 5:57 PM, HTTRG3Dynasty said:

So basically, just ignore stats and focus on factors that don’t actually make him more productive than Kerrigan?  

By the way, Kerrigan has higher TFL numbers too, in almost every year since they’ve both been in the league.

Von Miller, Khalil Mack, Bosa, and J.J. Watt all rush from the left end as well, and all are considered the best pass rushers at end in the league, so the level of comp argument is weak. 

The difference is Von Miller led the league in QB pressures from the end, had double digit sacks AND was the #1 graded edge defender against the run. Hes a freak.

Kerrigan I would say however is crazily underrated as he is a top 10 edge player in the NFL and everytime I see him he makes plays. Extremely underrated but he is nowhere close to the tier of Miller/Mack/Bosa/Watt. Hes in that 5-10 territory.

[HTTRDynasty]

3 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

The difference is Von Miller led the league in QB pressures from the end, had double digit sacks AND was the #1 graded edge defender against the run. Hes a freak.

Kerrigan I would say however is crazily underrated as he is a top 10 edge player in the NFL and everytime I see him he makes plays. Extremely underrated but he is nowhere close to the tier of Miller/Mack/Bosa/Watt. Hes in that 5-10 territory.

I wasn't arguing that he was.  I was arguing that using the "he only goes against RTs" argument against him is a terrible argument, since you can use that exact same argument against most of the top pass rushers in the league.

[Pugger]

On 6/24/2018 at 5:42 PM, DoleINGout said:

 

I've never really read ESPN articles or watched their programs. Same goes for local radio broadcasts and television; I can't stand it. My ranking for Brady in 2017 would have had him as the best player. Going into 2018 is a different story and I'm more cautious. Brady isn't just another year into his forties. Brady is still individually a great quarterback but I have to factor in the impact of his absence so far and how I think that impacts the team. I absolutely expect a decline in production.

I don't know if his absence is a reason why he might decline but his age is.   He is on the wrong side of 40 and football players' skills who reach this age can erode seemingly overnight.  Yes, he might surprise me and perform as well as he did in 2017 but nobody beats Father Time.  Not even Tom Brady.  Sooner or later he won't be the player he was in 2017 and before.

[SmittyBacall]

On 6/26/2018 at 9:48 PM, DoleINGout said:

Offensive line isn't solidified due to injuries guys are coming back from, (RT Marcus Cannon, LG Joe Thuney, LT/LG Isaiah Wynn, OT Trenton Brown). The wide receivers have the same issue, (Julian Edelman, Malcolm Mitchell, Chris Hogan). Aside from Jeremy Hill, none of the Patriots current running backs have started more than eight games in a single season. Along the line of injuries, rookie Sony Michel supposedly has some type of degenerative knee condition that could limit his longevity and use. The tight ends are a fantastic group but their best player, Rob Gronkowski, also skipped voluntary OTA's like Brady and has essentially been on the trade block until recently. Offensive coordinatoe Josh McDaniels is mediocre at best but was brought back by Robert Kraft personally last minute because of his relationship with Tom Brady and the window of opportunity to win a Super Bowl being extended only one more season in theory by the loss against the Eagles when Brady would have retired had he won. Now Brady, who has been the professional benchmark to transcend his own sport, is opposed to voluntary team practices and is seeking not only a large contract extension to compensate for the frustration he has with Bill Belichick and his teams culture. Brady is now letting his ego drive his actions and I'm afraid it will be just the cherry on top of everything else which will contribute to his decline in production. Plus he is turning 41 in August and can only be so smart before the chemistry with his new teammates is tested and adjustments need to be made in order to correct anything that goes wrong and ultimately produce like he is used to.

Look, Brady has said he intends on playing this season. If he honors his commitment and plays, he will obviously set his goal to be the Super Bowl champion again. He will remain super competitive in moments like he has before but he's already proven to be less engaged in the off-season with the details to practicing that helped refine him and his teammates in the past which really helps make him so great. This is not to say he will drop off drastically and be terrible, but less consistently elite and thus closer to average.

Well considering your comment that I quoted had nothing to do with the Patriots roster or their front office and everything to do with Brady's commitment makes the majority of this response inapplicable. You're backtracking off your original claim and compounding it with your perceived weaknesses of the team. In one post you're arguing his lack or commitment because he puts his family first, the next it's his ego. You can't move the goal posts.

The funny thing is this is all over OTAs, not training camp. Four weeks of non-contact pitch and catch and playbook work. Both of which he's done for 20 years. Maybe considering his increasing old age it's a positive to take another 6 weeks off and rest your body while enriching your soul with the family. You see this all the time with veterans during the season when coaches will give vets a day off practice on Thursday or Friday (ig. Andrew Whitworth). Yet he still competes at an elite level. There is no doubt in my mind Brady is still working out and doing football activities privately. He's not going to come into training camp without having touch a football all offseason.

[DoleINGout]

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

enriching your soul with the family

 Everybody can benefit from more of this.

 

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

Brady is still working out and doing football activities privately.

He has spent some time passing exclusively to Julian Edelman and I'm pretty sure Rob Gronkowski too. The rest of the team however, including a host of new wide receivers, running backs and offensive linemen, are not included in this private training.

 

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

He's not going to come into training camp without having touch a football all offseason.

Rob Gronkowski and TB12 have been training at a facility next to the stadium instead of with the rest of the team all off season.

 

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

You're backtracking off your original claim and compounding it with your perceived weaknesses of the team.

I'm giving you reasons why I think Brady will be less productive in addition to the point about being away from the team hurting the team, (thus affecting my opinion of his quality of contribution as a player).

 

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

In one post you're arguing his lack or commitment because he puts his family first, the next it's his ego.

The lack of commitment comes from being less involved with teammates at points in the off season when Brady himself told reporters last year why every team activity is important and how there isn't enough time to practice together. This year, Brady publicly distracts from the Patriots during the time he spent skipping voluntary OTA's. Talk about changing your tune! Brady preached the value of teamwork when it was all about winning the Super Bowl last year but now he seems like a hypocrite for showing up when it fits into his schedule. Brady used to be highly regarded for choosing to volunteer his time to not just improve with the team but to help the Patriots improve as a team. Now, Brady is concerned with the brand he created of himself as much as competing for every rep which has thrown his priorities all over the place, (no pun intended). Whatever advantages TB12 preached about gaining by competing in every practice as a team last year, the Patriots are without this time around. Brady is affecting his teammates even further by influencing Rob Gronkowski to put his business in front of the Patriots. Against Brady's own words a season ago, TB12 has been counterproductive.

There are a variety of interconnected reasons why Tom Brady is influencing the team differently in 2018. The proverbial "goal post" in our conversation has not shifted because I brought a few of these reasons to the forefront. Brady has taken less money throughout his entire career but now wants a huge raise at the end to compensate for feeling hurt over the lack of privileges he feels he is owed. Tom Brady's family requires more of his attention because his kids are at an age where he wants to become involved as a parent. Brady turns forty-one in August which is a huge factor in the decision making as well. Afterall, the Facebook docu-series was a Brady narrative questioning the essence of time. Most NFL players aren't playing at 41 years old. 

Clearly, one privlege Brady has been vocal about is spending less time with the team to be with his family. The problem is Brady hasn't been granted that permission by the Patriots. Bill Belichick in particular has not been on board with all of these new demands and won't put one persons needs above the enitre team.

Brady's personal trainer, Alex Guerro, lost his sideline and traveling privileges with the Patriots because his presence was conflicting with the Patriots official staff of athletic trainers. Since Deflate-gate happened, Brady has been engaged with his company, Alex Guerro, and the mission he is on as opposed to anyone elses, including Belichick's. At the very least, Gronkowski, (who was almost traded during the NFL Draft in April because of all the distractions from this), could have been in attendance during OTA's if he wasn't veered toward the TB12 workout facility. Gronk is following the path Brady has forged in his crusade to prove to the world how legitimate in everything he is after being suspended for cheating. Brady, never to be underestimated for his ability to feel slighted and operate with a chip on his shoulder, is doing his best to make sure everyone is aware of everything he is made of inside and out. The cost of being fueled so much by personal matters like Tom Brady is to the point where he has jeopardized the team is the reason why in my opinion he is less productive in the immediate future.

[lavar703]

If you leave Brady out of your top 5, let alone top 10, then you have some sort of bias against him. His last game played he absolutely torched one of the better defenses in football. You guys are better than this. 

[DoleINGout]

On 7/4/2018 at 5:16 PM, lavar703 said:

If you leave Brady out of your top 5, let alone top 10, then you have some sort of bias against him. His last game played he absolutely torched one of the better defenses in football. You guys are better than this. 

Not that it means I don't have a bias against TB12 or anything, but I did grow up rooting for the Pats.

[Shady Slim]

oooooh this is hard

brady

rodgers

brees

donald

brown

gronk

miller

martin

julio

smith

[Shady Slim]

if this was done a year or two ago i'd have to have watt in that range from 5-7

[frenchie]

Tom Brady

JJ Watt

Aaron Rodgers

Antonio Brown

Gronk

Aaron Donald

Julio Jones

Drew Brees

Luke Kuechly

Harrison Smith

 

[Danger]

On 6/20/2018 at 12:56 PM, ET80 said:

I'll be that guy - no Hopkins? Gotta figure an HM, if not a competition for #10 with Odell.

If Hopkins had a solid QB throwing him the ball, he'd probably be ranked ahead of Odell for mostly everyone.

[ET80]

10 minutes ago, Danger said:

If Hopkins had a solid QB throwing him the ball, he'd probably be ranked ahead of Odell for mostly everyone.

We'll finally get to see that next season...