Khalil Mack traded to the Bears (Page 19)

[BayRaider]

Raider and Brown fans are expert draft people. We’ve all researched and looked forward to the draft more so than any other franchise. 

[Gannon12]

1 hour ago, BayRaider said:

Raider and Brown fans are expert draft people. We’ve all researched and looked forward to the draft more so than any other franchise. 

It’s all we have and the FO usually screws up

[NJ Raider]

It does suck watching Mack dominate. He was one of my all/time favorite raiders and this season being so difficult makes it worse. In hindsight, we should have franchised Carr and make Mack our first priority. However, we can’t change that now. Couple thoughts:

1.) We will have no idea about the conversations between Mack, Gruden and other members of the organization over this offseason as far as who wasn’t speaking to whom. It seems like Mack made up his mind that he didn’t want to be on this team. He was clearly frustrated when KNJ was let go and probably again when JDR was let go. He may have also seen how much Carr regressed. All of those “best friend” comments were pretty one sided.

2.) It’s not like no offers were made. We don’t know exactly what they were and how much cash we had, but if things were that bad for that long, we should have tried to make a deal last April so this season would not be as big as a mess.

3.) It seemed like we were in for a Bell style holdout. The compensation would be okay if not for the second rounder we gave back. I would have rather they kept the third and we kept the second. At any rate, at least we got something for him. Pittsburgh will probably get a third at best.

Things look pretty bleak right now. Hope the ship can right itself.

[MrOaktown_56]

3 hours ago, NJ Raider said:

It does suck watching Mack dominate. He was one of my all/time favorite raiders and this season being so difficult makes it worse. In hindsight, we should have franchised Carr and make Mack our first priority. However, we can’t change that now. Couple thoughts:

1.) We will have no idea about the conversations between Mack, Gruden and other members of the organization over this offseason as far as who wasn’t speaking to whom. It seems like Mack made up his mind that he didn’t want to be on this team. He was clearly frustrated when KNJ was let go and probably again when JDR was let go. He may have also seen how much Carr regressed. All of those “best friend” comments were pretty one sided.

2.) It’s not like no offers were made. We don’t know exactly what they were and how much cash we had, but if things were that bad for that long, we should have tried to make a deal last April so this season would not be as big as a mess.

3.) It seemed like we were in for a Bell style holdout. The compensation would be okay if not for the second rounder we gave back. I would have rather they kept the third and we kept the second. At any rate, at least we got something for him. Pittsburgh will probably get a third at best.

Things look pretty bleak right now. Hope the ship can right itself.

2

We do know. Mack didn't want to play and would have held out indefinitely, unless Mark Davis was lying.

[big_palooka]

41 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

We do know. Mack didn't want to play and would have held out indefinitely, unless Mark Davis was lying.

100% false. He wanted to play, he just wanted to be compensated for what he was. A top 3 defensive player in the league. His agent is a smart, didn't want to risk injury with his client who was grossly underpaid. 

Davis/Gruden were desperate and couldn't call his bluff. He likely would not have passed on gameday checks. Bell is currently the only player to take that route. Even if Mack did hold out, you retain his rights and could have traded him still.

Let's stop making excuses and justifying it. He's a top player in the league. He should be a Raider right now, but our leadership is poor and they caved. The only thing Davis confirmed in his interview is that he is weak and if a player/agent plays hardball, he will fold like a lawn chair. 

[MrOaktown_56]

7 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

100% false. He wanted to play, he just wanted to be compensated for what he was. A top 3 defensive player in the league. His agent is a smart, didn't want to risk injury with his client who was grossly underpaid. 

Davis/Gruden were desperate and couldn't call his bluff. He likely would not have passed on gameday checks. Bell is currently the only player to take that route. Even if Mack did hold out, you retain his rights and could have traded him still.

Let's stop making excuses and justifying it. He's a top player in the league. He should be a Raider right now, but our leadership is poor and they caved. The only thing Davis confirmed in his interview is that he is weak and if a player/agent plays hardball, he will fold like a lawn chair. 

1

I didn't say he would never play for the Raiders. I meant, under their current terms of negotiation, he was unwilling to play.

They offered him the most money for any defender multiple times according to the article. He wanted more. It's a business, I understand that. I also understand that with his current contract, we wouldn't win anything, seeing as how poorly this roster has been built.  This team needs a massive overhaul and couldn't commit 90+ million guaranteed to a player on a team this bad. 

Can you imagine the fanbase if we went 5-11 this year with Mack and Cooper under contract, then extended Cooper for 18 million/year next year? Good god, him carr and cooper would literally take up close to 70 million on a mediocre to bad team.

Gruden is saying he doesn't want mediocre. He wants absolutely terrible, sure. But not mediocre. One of those rewards us long term and the other doesn't do a thing. Maybe this will backfire monumentally, but I can't blame him for not valuing 2 guys in a game starting 22, when many of those 22 weren't/aren't good.

[big_palooka]

15 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I didn't say he would never play for the Raiders. I meant, under their current terms of negotiation, he was unwilling to play.

They offered him the most money for any defender multiple times according to the article. He wanted more. It's a business, I understand that. I also understand that with his current contract, we wouldn't win anything, seeing as how poorly this roster has been built.  This team needs a massive overhaul and couldn't commit 90+ million guaranteed to a player on a team this bad. 

Can you imagine the fanbase if we went 5-11 this year with Mack and Cooper under contract, then extended Cooper for 18 million/year next year? Good god, him carr and cooper would literally take up close to 70 million on a mediocre to bad team.

Gruden is saying he doesn't want mediocre. He wants absolutely terrible, sure. But not mediocre. One of those rewards us long term and the other doesn't do a thing. Maybe this will backfire monumentally, but I can't blame him for not valuing 2 guys in a game starting 22, when many of those 22 weren't/aren't good.

Just because you signed Mack, doesn't mean you have to extend Cooper.... those things are not related. What if.... you signed Mack. Traded Cooper and could get out of Carr's contract if he's underperforming? 

If you don't want "mediocre" then you don't give away your HOF pass rusher and sign mediocre FA's like Whitehead and the rest of these bums.

[Bitty 2.0]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

100% false. He wanted to play, he just wanted to be compensated for what he was. A top 3 defensive player in the league. His agent is a smart, didn't want to risk injury with his client who was grossly underpaid. 

Davis/Gruden were desperate and couldn't call his bluff. He likely would not have passed on gameday checks. Bell is currently the only player to take that route. Even if Mack did hold out, you retain his rights and could have traded him still.

Let's stop making excuses and justifying it. He's a top player in the league. He should be a Raider right now, but our leadership is poor and they caved. The only thing Davis confirmed in his interview is that he is weak and if a player/agent plays hardball, he will fold like a lawn chair. 

Mark offer Mack a big contract he said no and then never showed up so the Raiders moved on.

If Mack was serious about being a Raider he would’ve showed up to OTA  after the contract offer.

Try to spin it any way you want but Macks auction speak for them themselves 

[riceman80]

The we couldnt afford Mack argument is tired and stupid.

"We couldnt afford it" yet everyone in here talking about how we can have around $80 mil in cap space next offseason even with Carr's contract still on the books.

Quit with the money argument cuz it's lame and bs.

[Nodisrespect]

And every penny we saved by not sighing Mack will be lost multiple times over in Fa overpaying people to play for the Raiders. Letting Mack get away was a multi tiered disaster.

[Nodisrespect]

2 hours ago, riceman80 said:

The we couldnt afford Mack argument is tired and stupid.

"We couldnt afford it" yet everyone in here talking about how we can have around $80 mil in cap space next offseason even with Carr's contract still on the books.

Quit with the money argument cuz it's lame and bs.

And the cap increases 10 mil per year.

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

Mark offer Mack a big contract he said no and then never showed up so the Raiders moved on.

If Mack was serious about being a Raider he would’ve showed up to OTA  after the contract offer.

Try to spin it any way you want but Macks auction speak for them themselves 

They gave an offer that Mack's agent didn't like because he knew he was worth more, so he held out. Get it right. He didn't show up, because the offer wasn't good enough. There is no spinning it. His agent worked Mark Davis and then the Bears were able to get him a new contract in 24 hours. If Davis/Gruden would have just upped the offer, he'd be a Raider today.

[Chali21]

33 minutes ago, Nodisrespect said:

And the cap increases 10 mil per year.

This.

its why i never cared about Carr’s contract, sure he was the highest paid QB...for like a month. Now his contract isn’t bad after what Rodgers, Cousins, Ryan, Stafford and Jimmy G have. In a few years Mack’s contract will look like a deal too. Heck you could even restructure Carr’s deal like how NE does with Brady. In fact they structured Carr’s deal like this so that they could sign Mack and Cooper down the line. Money certainly wasn’t the issue here. 

[big_palooka]

All this talk is interesting. The Bears and Raiders both hired new, offensive minded coaches in the offseason. Both teams had their perceived Franchise QBs already in the fold. Now let's compare here.

First.... let's look at how they build their coaching staffs:

Nagy retained Vic Fangio. Hired OC Mark Helfrich (former Oregon HC). Hired Harry Hiestand to coach Oline who was the Oline coach of Notre Dame from '12-'17 and oversaw development of guys like McGlinchey and Nelson. That's building a staff a good proven veteran guy and two innovative guys from the college ranks

Gruden hires Greg Olsen, a proven stick in the mud OC to just "oversee" things. And proven failure Tom Cable to run his Oline. Gets a solid vet DC in Guenther

Now look how they built their roster:

Bears: resigned their own core players: Amukamara, Fuller, Acho, etc. In FA make deliberate signings to help their young QB. WR's Robinson and Gabriel. TE Burton. Younger guys with upside.

By contrast, the Raiders cut Carr's go to Crabtree, add an older, slower Jordy Nelson. Trade Patterson, a occasional home run hitter. Sign no notable FAs on a bad defense and create the oldest roster in the league. 

Then the Bears raid the roster for their best player in Mack to elevate an already stout defense.

The Bears were playing chess while the Raiders were playing checkers. 

The worst part of this, Gruden looked at that roster/staff, with the Jets in the mix and thought they would be awful and traded Mack to them. 

To have any confidence in Gruden turning this ship around at this point is nothing more than blind optimism. They had cap space and leverage this past offseason and sunk the ship before it left the port.  

[Bitty 2.0]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

They gave an offer that Mack's agent didn't like because he knew he was worth more, so he held out. Get it right. He didn't show up, because the offer wasn't good enough. There is no spinning it. His agent worked Mark Davis and then the Bears were able to get him a new contract in 24 hours. If Davis/Gruden would have just upped the offer, he'd be a Raider today.

 The offer was made in good faith he should’ve showed up to the OTAs in good faith .

You see how that work? You don’t have to hold out when the  team is negotiating with you.