Greatest Runningback of all time?

[kingseanjohn]

Since he isn't being talked about, a little tidbit of info.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYtXZd3Q5d4

 

Makes me wonder what could have been if he didn't get that neck/spinal injury.

[skywlker32]

17 hours ago, kingseanjohn said:

Since he isn't being talked about, a little tidbit of info.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYtXZd3Q5d4

 

Makes me wonder what could have been if he didn't get that neck/spinal injury.

He played to an older age than Barry did, but Priest had an incredible peak, that's for sure (how much of that was his OL, we won't know, but he is underappreciated).

[M.10.E]

Adrian Peterson is the best RB I've ever seen. I don't speak on people I never watched live.

[Dome]

On 1/10/2019 at 9:46 AM, M.10.E said:

Adrian Peterson is the best RB I've ever seen. I don't speak on people I never watched live.

Same but I’m going LT

[x0x]

If we're talking prime for prime, Earl Campbell might be your #1. He really carried those Houston teams.

[DirtyDez]

What if Barry had Payton’s defense?

[sn0mm1s]

The below is stuff I wrote on this board in 2012. I don't feel like editing/updating it because I am more or less done with this topic. 
It reads like a stream of consciousness since it is multiple replies regarding Barry Sanders.
You can read the original thread here:
Original

Yes, it has been said here - and it is a myth. The Lions had problems winning because they didn't have a D nor a consistent, solid QB (excepting Mitchell 1995). 

Their last championship was in 1957. 

From 1958-1988 they had 9 winning seasons and made the playoffs 3 times (once with a losing record). 

From 1989-1998 (Barry's career) 
Made the playoffs 5 times and had 5 winning seasons. 

After retirement 1999-2011 
They have had 2 winning season, made the playoffs twice (once with a .500 record), and had that gem of an 0-16 season. 

So, in the 54 years since their last championship, the 10 years with Barry they have 5 winning seasons with 5 playoff appearances. In the other 44 they have a total of 11 winning seasons and 5 playoff appearances. 

He made the playoffs with 4 different QBs and his best D was ranked 10th. 

Since the AFL/NFL merger in 1970 the Lions were top 10 in scoring 10 times. Five of those were with Sanders - with 4 different QBs. 

The fact is, Sanders dramatically improved the Lions but no RB has led a team through the regular season and playoffs without help. 

You need a QB or a spectacular D to win a ring - Sanders never had either. Hell, he had 6 different leading passers in 10 years.

He didn't play with much talent. Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover are usually what people use to debunk the statement that Barry had good linemen (despite tons of video evidence to the contrary). Both Brown and Glover were drafted in 1985 - here are the rushing ranks of the Lions 1985-1988 - out of 28 teams. 

1985: Att:18    Yards:26    RushTDs:20    YPC:28 
1986: Att:16    Yards:15    RushTDs:16    YPC:19 
1987: Att:25    Yards:25    RushTDs:23    YPC:24 
1988: Att:26    Yards:27    RushTDs:28    YPC:28 

The 4 years of the Lions with Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover (without Barry) they didn't have a single rushing stat in the top 1/2 of the league and were dead last in several stats multiple years. The year prior to Barry arriving the perennial all pro/pro bowl lineman were able to bulldoze the way for their RBs to be last in the league in YPC, last in the league in rushing TDs, and second to last in yards. Take the literal worst rushing team in the league (and one of the worst offenses in history) and add Barry Sanders and here are the results. 

1989: Att:20    Yards:8    RushTDs:1 YPC:1 

Barry takes the Lions from worst to first in TDs and YPC. He leads them to a top 10 finish in yards despite still only ranking 20th in carries. No one, not Payton, Brown, LT, Smith, Faulk, Simpson, Dorsett etc. etc. have had such a dramatic effect on a team. That wasn't because Brown and Glover all of a sudden learned how to block - it was because you put the GOAT RB in the backfield. 

On top of that, after Lomas Brown was let go, Barry had a 1500 yard season at 5.1 YPC and then a 2000 yard season at 6.1 YPC. If Brown really was this elite left tackle you would expect to see some drop off but there wasn't any. 

This isn't even taking into account lack of TEs or FBs for most of his career or the Lions refusal to draft linemen for Barry.

This really isn't true either. His average game was 
3 carries for -2.5 yards each 
17 carries for 6.3 yards each

Actually, besides Floyd Little (who probably shouldn't even be in the HOF), Sanders is the only HOF RB to never play with a QB making a pro bowl or 1st team all pro selection and to never get to play with another HOFer on either side of the football. There are good number of RBs that have had poor offensive lines - but not many of them also had poor QBs and no TEs or FBs blocking for them. Sanders didn't get a standard offense installed with a lead blocker until his 9th year in the league. All he did was run for 2K yards averaging over 6 YPC. 

As great of a runner that Sanders was, his talents were misused The Lions tried building a pass first team, without a good QB, with the GOAT in the backfield.

The Bears improved from 3.4 to 3.7 with Payton - 9% improvement 
The Cowboys declined from 4.0 to 3.8 with Smith - 5% decline 
The Browns improved from 3.8 to 3.9 with Brown - 3% improvement 
The Chargers improved from 3.0 to 3.9 with LT - 30% improvement 
The Colts improved from 3.5 to 4.2 with Faulk - 20% improvement 
The Rams improved from 4.1 to 4.4 with Dickerson - 7% improvement 
The Vikes improved with Peterson from 4.1 to 5.3 - 29% improvement 
The Oilers improved with Campbell from 3.9 to 4.1 - 5% improvement 
The Bills improved with Simpson from 3.8 to 4.0 - 5% improvement 

The Lions when from 3.2 to 4.9 with Sanders - 53% improvement. 

That is a pretty big difference - and those are some big names. You are severely underestimating how good Sanders was. And I have read all of Chase's stuff over the years. In fact, at one point I loaded all of his stats into my own database so I could run my own queries comparing them to the league, compared to teammates, the impact the player made (this was around 2005 or 2006 when Chase made all his stats publicly available) etc. etc. 

The top two RBs by a large margin were Sanders and Brown. I did this to satisfy my own curiosity to validate what I would hear talking heads say all the time. I learned interesting things like: 

Earl Campbell never scored a receiving TD. 

The toughest decade to run in, judged by YPC, was the 1990s. 

The runner (excluding their totals) that faced the toughest era was Barry Sanders. 

Tony Dorsett fumbled as often as he scored. 

Barry Sanders is the only player in NFL history to score all of his team's non-QB rushing TDs in 5 different seasons. 

At the time Curtis Martin was the best at holding on to the ball. 

Marshall Faulk caught the highest percentage of passes to RBs, Sanders was 2nd. Edge was nipping at both their heels at the time. 

Sanders took the highest % of his team's non-QB carries in NFL history. 

Curtis Martin had scored the highest percentage of his team's TDs (Smith and Sanders were 2nd and 3rd but I don't remember the order). Tomlinson and Alexander were looking to vault into the top spots but Chase stopped supplying the stats so I was never able to update the research. 

Tiki Barber was an extremely underrated runner. 

At one point I had a huge list of interesting trivia and breakdowns - but that was a long time and several hard drives ago. 

So, when someone says something like "Barry was replaced at the goal line all the time." The stats don't support that at all. It would actually be more accurate to say Walter Payton wasn't as reliable at the goal line based on all the other RBs and even DL getting their numbers called instead of him. Or "Barry was replaced on 3rd down and pass plays because he wasn't a good receiver." the stats don't support that at all either.

The problem is that we only got to see Barry with a standard offense his last two years in the league. He ran for 2K yards at 6+ YPC once he was given a FB and TE regularly. I don't remember what week he got injured in 1998 (I believe it was against Tampa or Pitt) but up until that point he was averaging 113 yards a game. I have no doubt that if the Lions had scrapped the Run n Shoot and given him a real offense his numbers would be better. That said, we can only judge him on what he did - and even that should put him #1. 

Tiki Barber is underrated primarily because the Giants were horrible at running the ball. He ended his career with a 10.5K yards with a 4.7 YPC, 3 straight 1500+ yard seasons, and 3 straight 2K yards from scrimmage season. Now, he did have some fumbling issues in the middle of his career but I don't recall it being horrible (compared to guys like Payton, Dickerson, Dorsett, and a few other historically good RBs). He did fumble more than his peers though but not his last 3 seasons in the NFL. 

The rest of the Giants managed 3.7 YPC - and it wasn't like these RBs weren't well thought of prior to joining the NFL. 
Tyrone Wheatley (a beast at Michigan) and Ron Dayne (Heisman winner, NCAA all time rushing leader) were both 1st round picks that struggled to produce on the Giants.

COMPILED GROSS YARDAGE (0+ YARDS) 
Year Att. Gross Yds. Avg./Att. 
1989 251 1,551 6.2 
1990 227 1,388 6.1 
1991 296 1,676 5.7 
1992 268 1,449 5.4 
1993 206 1,206 5.9 
1994 280 2,029 7.2 
1995 260 1,613 6.2 
1996 263 1,663 6.3 
1997 287 2,156 7.5 
1998 278 1,652 5.9 
Total 2,616 16,383 6.3 

COMPILED NEGATIVE YARDAGE 
Year Att. Yds. Lost Avg./Att. 
1989 29 81 -2.8 
1990 28 84 -3.0 
1991 46 128 -2.8 
1992 44 97 -2.2 
1993 37 91 -2.5 
1994 51 146 -2.9 
1995 54 113 -2.1 
1996 44 110 -2.5 
1997 48 103 -2.1 
1998 65 161 -2.5 
Total 446 1,114 -2.5

[sn0mm1s]

Also something I wrote 4 years ago:

 

I have written a lot on RB rankings over the years... I could probably cut and paste a dissertation on debunking Barry Sanders myths from my posts around the web. As with my other rankings I will almost never put a player #1 if the majority of their career was played prior to 1975. I am especially harsh in regards to this with RBs because they truly are trying to physically beat multiple players on nearly every rush. I am not as impressed with players that are compilers nor am I that impressed with YFS if large portion of that is routinely receiving yards. Surrounding talent means a lot as does how other runners on the same team performed. I don't factor in wins or rings with RBs (like I do with QBs) because I have yet to see a RB make a team a contender on his own. I am not a big fan of short yardage TDs because they are easy to get. I apologize in advance for the run on sentences and poor grammar... this is the internet.

1) Barry Sanders - easily the #1 for me. No player has done more with less. He averaged 5 YPC in the toughest era to run in judged by YPC. While he played the average non-QB rush (excluding Sanders) was under 4 YPC (I believe it was 3.8 or 3.9) and this is the lowest in NFL history among players with over 1800 career carries. He took the highest % of his team's non-QB carries (IIRC something around 86%). And, when I last checked, he was in the top 3 in % of team passes to RBs. He also scored the same % of non-QB rushing TDs for the Lions as Emmitt did for the Cowboys. All of those debunk the myths that he was pulled in passing downs, pulled in goal line situations, and pulled in 3rd downs. He also made the greatest impact as a rookie. The prior 4 years to Barry arriving on the Lions they were the worst rushing team in the NFL (all 4 of those years the Lions had Lomas Brown and Kevin Glover) he took them from literal worst in the NFL to first in the NFL in multiple categories. He played the majority of his career without a TE or FB and when he did finally get a standard offense all he did was rush for 2K yards averaging 6.1 YPC. He also had another season where he ran for 1800+ yards at a 5.7 YPC while non-QB league average was 3.7 YPC. He is also one of only 2 RBs in the HOF (the other being Floyd Little) that never played with another HOF and never played with a QB that got an AP or pro bowl nod.

2) Walter Payton - Another guy who did a lot with very little. He was a great runner and a good receiver. He also ran very hard for a guy that was only around 210.

3) Jim Brown - I think the era he played it was very weak compared to modern players. He makes it this far due to the fact that he was so dominant during his time - though some of the dominance was purely because he was taking 20 carries a game when 90% of the league was RBBC. Brown was really only competing against one *maybe* two other players in a season. Also, Bobby Mitchell, had a higher YPC and scored TDs at a greater rate while on the same team. He was also surrounded by HOFers (unlike the first 2 on the list).

4) Emmitt Smith - I think many underrate Smith (as with other RBs that played in the 1990s). The 1990s was a difficult decade to run in. Emmitt had an amazing peak and obviously his longevity is unmatched.

5) Tomlinson - I think the next 4 could be put in any order - but since I am forced to choose LT gets in at #5. I do think Marty liked padding his TD totals, but you still can't argue with the overall production of Tomlinson. Also, the reason LT gets the nod over the next 3 guys is the fact that he just didn't put the ball on the turf.

6) Eric Dickerson - probably the most underrated of the great RBs. His running ability is better than LT but he did fumble quite a bit more. I am not positive, but I don't think there is anyone that matches his first 4 years in the league. The guy was a monster.

7) OJ Simpson - yes, he killed people - probably - but he was awesome on the field. He was misused early in his career which hurts his career totals. He played in that sort of transitional period in the NFL so I knock him down a bit for that. However, his peak seasons really can't be matched.

8) Marshall Faulk - Faulk has always been difficult for me to place. He was a borderline bust on the Colts (considering where he was drafted and what was expected out of him). He put up one of the worst rushing seasons ever at the age of 23 with RBs among RBs taking a similar number of carries (yes I know he had some toe issues). Faulk also got to play with some decent talent on the Colts. The Colts (not that recent history has shown the Colts know much about RBs) traded him for pennies if they really thought he was a HOFer. Edge came in as a rookie and had a better rushing season that Faulk ever had on the Colts. All that said, once he was in an offense that gave him space to work in he was unstoppable. His peak was so great that when most of us think of Faulk we think of the 3 healthy seasons he had for the Rams rather than the 4 he had on the Colts.

9) Earl Campbell - dominant for a short stretch. However, even though I am not a big proponent of YFS, the guy just didn't catch the ball. In fact, he never even scored a receiving TD his entire career.

10) Adrian Peterson - at one point I thought Peterson would break into the top 5 but I don't think so any longer. This past decade or so has been much easier to run in (judged by YPC) than previous decades so I am not as impressed with his 5.0 YPC in today's game that seems to focus on passing with running being an after thought.

11) Joe Perry - Imagine there was no Jim Brown. If there was no Jim Brown, Joe Perry would've held the all time rushing mark from 1955 to 1976 - over 20 years. Perry also had some amazing longevity considering the medical advancements during the time he played.

12) Thurman Thomas - Imagine there was no Marshall Faulk etc. etc. Thurman had an amazing 4 year stretch with the Bills. I am pretty sure he is the only RB that led the league in YFS for 4 straight years. It is unfortunate for his legacy that Faulk was putting up his crazy numbers right as Thurman was exiting the league. There was a time in the early 90s where if you asked: "Who is the best RB in the NFL?" most people would agree that the answer: "I don't know but he played for Ok St." was a correct one.

13) Franco Harris - was a key cog in the Steelers' dynasty when running the ball was the thing to do.

14) Corey Dillon - my controversial pick. I think, talentwise, Dillon is a HOFer. He played 7 years on a horrible Bengals team that never even managed a winning record but he rushed for over 1000 yards for his first 6 seasons and even broke Walter Payton's 20+ year old single game record against the #1 rushing D in the league at the time. He gets labeled a malcontent, goes to the Patriots, and when he finally has a decent team around him he sets career highs in both rushing and TDs at the age of 30. I am not sure how many RBs set career highs in both those stats over the age of 30 - but it can't be many. Surrounding talent can have a dramatic effect on RB production and I think Dillon got the short end of the stick during his prime and is still a top 20 all time rusher.

15) Curtis Martin - my gut tells me that Martin isn't a HOFer and that he was a compiler. Similar to Jerome Bettis, his career YPC is below league average for RBs while he played. However, if he is a compiler, then he is the greatest compiler the game has ever seen - and the guy just didn't fumble. He is the guy that is really hard for me to place.

16) Tony Dorsett - great player on great teams. He never really led the league in anything and that is a mark against him since he played on some good teams. He would be higher on my list if he didn't fumble as often as he scored.

17) Terrell Davis - I think the Bronco's system makes the RB look much better than he actually is. Mike Anderson, Olandis Gary, Droughns, and Portis all looked great in that Denver system. Portis, at the same point in their careers, actually looked better. Davis gets this position because there isn't a better post season runner ever - system or not. What the guy accomplished in the post season is nothing short of amazing.

18) Edgerrin James - A workhorse back that could both run and catch. It is unfortunate that he probably won't make the HOF.

19) Tiki Barber - Another underrated back that peaked basically as he was exiting the league. He had some great rushing and YFS seasons and, what many don't realize, is that aside from Barber the Giants were absolutely horrible at running the ball. I am pretty sure that compared to his teammates, Barber has one of the most significant improvement in YPC in the history of the NFL.

20) Gale Sayers - career is too short, no matter how good, for me to put him above the others.

-------- Those I left off:
Bettis - never led the league in anything, YPC was below league average for his career, for being a short yardage RB he rarely broke double digit TDs, was never considered one of the best in the league.
Allen - yes he had a good year or two - but playing like a 30 year old Tomlinson for a dozen years makes you a compiler in my book.
Bo Jackson - Couldn't stay healthy in college, couldn't stay healthy in the pros, got to come in midseason rested (comparatively), wasn't much of a receiver, Jamaal Charles had similar numbers at the same # of games in their careers IIRC and no one is putting Charles in their top 20 list (though he may deserve it more than Peterson in a few years)

[Rtnldave]

https://www.simplemost.com/nfls-greatest-running-backs-of-all-time/31/?lvl=opt2&stack=ssp&utm_content=adrizer

 

Opinions vary.

[skywlker32]

3 hours ago, Rtnldave said:

https://www.simplemost.com/nfls-greatest-running-backs-of-all-time/31/?lvl=opt2&stack=ssp&utm_content=adrizer

 

Opinions vary.

Quick, rank these players, Curtis Martin, Marshall Faulk, and OJ Simpson

[Rtnldave]

7 hours ago, skywlker32 said:

Quick, rank these players, Curtis Martin, Marshall Faulk, and OJ Simpson

Quick, 1 SB, 3 players.

Dallas wins NOTHING without Smith.

Smith has 3, SB mvp, multiple pro bowls, league mvp,  all time rushing champ, most TDs by a RB, hmmmm, geee this is a toughie.

 

[buno67]

easy, Barkley...

[Thomas5737]

In Barry Sanders' prime his dad went on record saying Jim Brown was the best RB of all time.

He was wrong imo, I think it was Barry. Brown may have been more dominate while he played (before my time, although I think he is still getting up from the last time he was tackled) and maybe there are other RBs who would fit in better in certain places at certain times (chain movers) but there isn't an argument that anyone could do what Barry did. I twice tore my ACL just watching him run. We'll probably never see another Barry. I hope we do, no one has ever been more entertaining on a football field.

[Rtnldave]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ranking-every-qb-performance-in-super-bowl-history/ar-BBSYjfL?li=BBnb7Kz

For what it is worth, earlier I posted that when it comes to naming the GOAT WR invariably the answer is Jerry Rice.

He has all the leading stats, or most of them, that a WR can have.

But I also made the point that he had the advantage of playing on a 5 time SB champion team, Bill Walsh/ George Seiffert as HC and Montana/ Young throwing him the ball.

If you look at this link, you will see the top 3 ranked QB performances in a SB are by none other than his 2 QB's. Talk about having the best (at the time) throwing you the ball. He can attribute much of his success to the right scheme for his skill set, the best QB (at the time), the best HC at the time, a #1 defense, etc. Yet no one argues his ranking as the GOAT.

But the same logic fails to be applied to Emmitt Smith when it comes to his accomplishments in the league. The argument is consistently made that he had a great line, a great QB, a great WR corp, etc. That if Barry Sanders or LT or Marshall Faulk had his team, they would have fared much better. 

Just 2 things wrong with that assumption.

1. The Cowboys offense of the 90's was built around the lead draw to set up the passing game. This was designed for Smith's skill set. Very much like the WC offense was designed for Rice's skill set. Not every WR would thrive in it just like not any RB could have played in Smith's offense. They tried in 1992-93 season when Smith held out for 2 games. With all this immense talent, they couldn't win a single game!!!! Enter Smith, they win 7 in a row. Food for thought, we will get back to that in a minute. The Cowboys offense often used Smith to stay in and protect Aikman. His ability to pick up a blitz was far better than any RB I have seen mentioned so far. It also required him to be a receiver out of the backfield, which he did as good or better than most.

2. If you scroll down on the link you will see that the 5th best performance by a QB in a SB was none other than Troy Aikman in SB 27. Yay! But keep going a bit to the "A win is a win" column and you will see that only 1 year later, SB 28, Aikman failed to throw a single TD. He even threw an INT. Yet the Cowboys won that SB 30-13 after training 13-6 at halftime. What could have transpired in half a game that could have led to 24 unanswered points?

A: Emmitt Smith put this team on his back, along with an outstanding defensive performance, and led the team to another SB victory. The defense knew he was getting the ball, they knew Aikman was a non factor, they stacked the box, someone had to be free with 11 on 11 and the QB being a non factor and the RB handling the ball, that means there were 2 defenders with no one blocking them. Yet, Smith carried this team to a SB victory, earned SB MVP honors, along with League MVP honors, won the rushing title that season as well after holding out 2 games in which this powerhouse of a team, that everyone claims Smith had the unfair advantage of playing on, couldn't win a single game.

Not to mention, had it not been for the Cowboys of the 90's the 49ers and Jerry Rice could have easily won 3 more SB's. And the reason Dallas was so dominant for those 4 years was because E. Smith was the key to that offense. The team went as he went.

So when it comes to naming the GOAT at any position I look at way more than stats, in this case YPC, rushing yards, TD's etc. In which case Smith owns most of those anyway. But I also look at why the offense enjoyed so much success, RB knowing his assignments, staying in and blocking, being able to effectively pick up a blitz, recognizing when to slip out as a a safety valve receiver when a play breaks down and then being able to get the necessary yardage, and most of all, being able to raise your teams level of play on the biggest of stages when everything else is failing to lead the team to a victory, especially when the opposition KNOWS who is getting the ball and still can't stop it.

That is greatness at any position and, in this case, E. Smith did this more than any RB I have ever seen. That is why I feel he is the GOAT.

 

[Gmen]

I feel like I’m jumping into the middle of a heated discussion, but I’d like to throw Saquon Barkley into the mix. K thnx