Leader Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Malfatron said: "I'm not trying to honor you, I'm trying to get you to run my kingdom while I eat, drink, and boar my way to an early grave" Bob to Ned. Year 1 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, Leader said: Not sure I'm following you....but you're referring to the love of the Mereen people not supporting her burning down Knights Landing conceptually? If so - the two aren't directly related. Was it the people of Mereen who were calling her "Meesha?" I dont recall exactly, but yes - early on the people she liberated did support her - or "love" her if you would. That changed dramatically and was depicted both visually and thru dialog the closer she got to actually achieving the throne - or more geographically - when she came (what?) west out of the desert to the Winterfell side of things? People continually want to say the predicates for her actions wasnt presented. I disagree. It wasnt stretched out over 10-13 episodes - but so what? It was still presented. As my previous comment stated, she felt increasingly isolated and was increasingly concerned by the threat posed by Jon Snow's claim to the throne. This was depicted on my TV screen at least. Maybe I got a singular feed LOL. When she felt she couldnt even trust Jon Snow - as she clearly came to believe - she determined she needed to take control via "fear" - the torching of Knights Landing resulted. It's actually a fairly straight line and was depicted visually and via dialog. Was it "rushed?" - I couldnt care less so long as they presented a clear narrative - which they did IMO. No my point is she wasn't loved, but she hadn't saved them yet. The people of Mereen, and other places in Essos, loved her only AFTER she saved them. You can't save people by killing them. You can be cruel to your enemies, but if you can't use instilling fear as a reason to kill innocent people. The entire purpose of fear based ruling is don't step out of line or I'll kill you. If instead you act in a way that I'll kill you even if you did nothing wrong, there is no basis for the fear to result in compliance; only uprising. Her actions would be more likely to result in the Seven Kingdoms banding together against her. Also instantly destroying the Iron Fleet and the walls of King's Landing and flying on a freaking dragon already installed plenty of fear. Further if she feared Jon's birth as a threat, keeping him on her side would be paramount. And if you meet Jon for even 1 minute you know that massacring everybody isn't the way to do that. You are also making up a reason that didn't exist. She said "why" she did it. Because Cersei used them thinking Dany was too weak. That was her reason. It is completely illogical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malfatron Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Leader said: Bob to Ned. Year 1 ? yep. foreshadowing in that quote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, mse326 said: No my point is she wasn't loved, but she hadn't saved them yet. The people of Mereen, and other places in Essos, loved her only AFTER she saved them. You can't save people by killing them. You can be cruel to your enemies, but if you can't use instilling fear as a reason to kill innocent people. The entire purpose of fear based ruling is don't step out of line or I'll kill you. If instead you act in a way that I'll kill you even if you did nothing wrong, there is no basis for the fear to result in compliance; only uprising. Her actions would be more likely to result in the Seven Kingdoms banding together against her. Also instantly destroying the Iron Fleet and the walls of King's Landing and flying on a freaking dragon already installed plenty of fear. Further if she feared Jon's birth as a threat, keeping him on her side would be paramount. And if you meet Jon for even 1 minute you know that massacring everybody isn't the way to do that. You are also making up a reason that didn't exist. She said "why" she did it. Because Cersei used them thinking Dany was too weak. That was her reason. It is completely illogical. I think you may be hung up on the thought that she was more concerned with freeing people than achieving power. Early on her freeing people was in a way to feed a growing army. She had none. So it could just as easily be viewed her "freeing" folks was her method of gaining power in order to take the throne. I dont think she sought the love of the people of Knights Landing so much as she coveted the throne and the closer she got to achieving her goal - the more ruthless she became. I've little doubt that if there was another season - has she not died this season - she'd have attempted to take out Jon Snow. His love was too conditional for her to feel safe with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Leader said: I think you may be hung up on the thought that she was more concerned with freeing people than achieving power. Early on her freeing people was in a way to feed a growing army. She had none. So it could just as easily be viewed her "freeing" folks was her method of gaining power in order to take the throne. I dont think she sought the love of the people of Knights Landing so much as she coveted the throne and the closer she got to achieving her goal - the more ruthless she became. I've little doubt that if there was another season - has she not died this season - she'd have attempted to take out Jon Snow. His love was too conditional for her to feel safe with. Her entire campaign was free the people, death to tyrants. She didn't need to burn everything to take power. She already had it. If anything that made it less likely she would have any real power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mse326 said: Her entire campaign was free the people, death to tyrants. She didn't need to burn everything to take power. She already had it. If anything that made it less likely she would have any real power. Yes - but you're supposing she's behaving in a straight line. What leader hasnt cast their actions in glowing terms that conceal their true motives and portrays their actions positively? She also felt the throne was her birth rite. You have to....whats the term......make those two urges come together somehow. I think her behavior changed over time and wasnt as............pure.....as some consider. The "death to tyrants" motive gave her a growing army with which she could claim total power. Whats that they say about power corrupting? Edited May 23, 2019 by Leader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Leader said: Yes - but you're supposing she's behaving in a straight line. What leader hasnt cast their actions in glowing terms that conceal their true motives and portrays their actions positively? She also felt the throne was her birth rite. You have to....whats the term......make those two urges come together somehow. I think her behavior changed over time and wasnt as............pure.....as some consider. The "death to tyrants" motive gave her a growing army with which she could claim total power. Whats that they say about power corrupting? You've still yet to show a logical reason to kill everyone in Kings Landing? What purpose did it serve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, mse326 said: She didn't need to burn everything to take power. She already had it. If anything that made it less likely she would have any real power. Again - she herself stated she needed to rule through fear - which was consistent with other rulers - so she was becoming those she had opposed. Her first acts was to declare GW the Master of War (or something similar....) and declare her world would be consumed by continual war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, Leader said: she herself stated she needed to rule through fear You can't just keep stating it like that makes sense. How does killing everyone allow her to rule through fear? It doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mse326 said: You can't just keep stating it like that makes sense. How does killing everyone allow her to rule through fear? It doesn't. ? How does it not? A subjugated people are a people living in fear - or otherwise a docile people - easy to lead. You're portraying her on some sort of "Love Parade" - I'm saying her motives werent quite as pure and as stated already - she was becoming (and behaving) those she had earlier decried...i.e. ruthless leaders. Tyrants. Again: Power corrupts. Even pretty blondes with pretty eyes. Edited May 23, 2019 by Leader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Lol @ people acting like Dannys decision made sense in any way. If you’re gonna make us believe she’s a Mad Queen or could care less about lives you’re gonna have to do a lot better than some sentences and burning military leaders. It was the most forced scene I have watched in TV history. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, BayRaider said: Lol @ people acting like Dannys decision made sense in any way. If you’re gonna make us believe she’s a Mad Queen or could care less about lives you’re gonna have to do a lot better than some sentences and burning military leaders. It was the most forced scene I have watched in TV history. Sorry BR. I'm not gonna try taking you off that ledge. Believe what you will. Its fine with me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Leader said: ? How does it not? A subjugated people are a people living in fear - or otherwise a docile people - easy to lead. You're portraying her on some sort of "Love Parade" - I'm saying her motives werent quite as pure and as stated already - she was becoming (and behaving) those she had earlier decried...i.e. ruthless leaders. Tyrants. Again: Power corrupts. Even pretty blondes with pretty eyes. Because people will only be led to SAVE their lives. If being innocent and complying doesn't prevent the specter of death they instead rise up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Just now, mse326 said: Because people will only be led to SAVE their lives. If being innocent and complying doesn't prevent the specter of death they instead rise up. This is getting a bit more conceptual than necessary...... Throughout history - our real life history - but more to the point in the fantasy world which unfolded here - multiple peoples lived in fear and didnt rise up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Just now, Leader said: This is getting a bit more conceptual than necessary...... Throughout history - our real life history - but more to the point in the fantasy world which unfolded here - multiple peoples lived in fear and didnt rise up. People that could be killed for doing nothing wrong (as per the government)? Name them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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