tyler735 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: congrats? the saints have exactly one good defensive player. 1 more than the Falcons have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid Iowa Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 11 hours ago, Yin-Yang said: I called it a cop out because I don’t think it’s one of those situations where we throw our hands in the air and say “who knows how it would turn out, could go either way”. Brees is one of the most accurate QBs to have played and is a high volume passer. So it’s not really apples-to-apples if we throw someone like Ben in here, because even though he’ll be on the HOF ballot (not by my choice), he’s still not the QB Brees is. Nor does he play on the volumized offense. And yes, I think if we’re debating two players that are similar in ability/ranking and we’re also bringing up statistics, then it makes complete sense to bring their environment into the discussion. And I whole heartedly disagree with the idea that Brees spreads the ball around, at least anymore than most other QBs. Thomas and Kamara took 60% of the targets last week. Other than them, only Watson (5) and Ginn (3) had more than 2 catches. Last year’s numbers show Thomas/Kamara’s targets right in line % wise with most of the league, so they’re not exactly starving while Brees gets the ball to other players. But I digress, I don’t want to get in the debate about Brees. Point is, if the debate is Thomas/Evans, they’re two players that are close enough to where you should look at their environment as well. Especially if you’re using stats. I get your point, so please don't take this next sentence as an "I have to have the last word argument". I'll continue to point out that if they're getting 60% or whatever targets, it's because they're open, or will get open. 10 for 10 on receptions/targets is pretty dang awesome, regardless of who your QB is. And many of them are contested. Thomas will go for everything! When guys like Ginn get alligator arms (we saw that on Sunday) Thomas will take the hit AND catch the ball. That speaks volumes, in my book. I appreciate your discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 10 hours ago, tyler735 said: 1 more than the Falcons have? not true even if you want to ignore all their injured guys. Grady Jarrett is excellent. But look at the saints... whose their next bext player. Lattimore? Guy looks like a fluke, has been awful so far this year. Deion Jones, Neal, Takk McKinley looks extremely promising. Please, name some actual good saints defensive players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 2 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said: not true even if you want to ignore all their injured guys. Grady Jarrett is excellent. But look at the saints... whose their next bext player. Lattimore? Guy looks like a fluke, has been awful so far this year. Deion Jones, Neal, Takk McKinley looks extremely promising. Please, name some actual good saints defensive players. Hahaha written like a true homer. Lattimore has allowed 2 touchdowns in 18 career games. He looked bad week 1 this year (Against a fringe top 5 WR), but has been his typical great self since then. Week 2 vs. the Browns, Lattimore allowed 3 catches for 22 yards, had 5 tackles, and a Forced Fumble Week 3 vs. the Falcons, Lattimore covered Julio Jones for most of the game until midway through the 3rd quarter when Lattimore switched to cover Ridley. Up until that point Lattimore held Julio Jones to a whopping 22 receiving yards on 2 catches. Once Lattimore switched onto Ridley. Ridley had a whopping 1 catch for 8 yards against Lattimore. In other words, Lattimore has had 1 bad performance and 2 great ones this year. We also can't just ignore his excellent body of work during his rookie year, so yeah, Lattimore is still a great player for us.. I will say that my previous response was a bit in jest regarding the Falcons not having talented players, as I do think they have some talented young defenders, but it was largely due to the absurd comment about the Saints having "exactly 1 good defensive player". That said, if you are going to include guys like Takk Mckinley, then I'd certainly say Marcus Davenport is extremely promising as he is one of the biggest athletic freaks at his position in the NFL. He needs to work on some pass rush moves still, but his power, and explosive acceleration have already been put to good use for us, as evidenced by some of these plays last week against the Falcons where he completely drove their OL backwards several times: If we are including injured guys, Patrick Robinson was rated as the top slot CB in the NFL by PFF last year, he was doing good for us before he was injured last game. Marcus Williams has also been extremely promising. Demario Davis has also started to look good for us, as he has been a good player the past several years, and had an 87.3 PFF grade last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 33 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Hahaha written like a true homer. Lattimore has allowed 2 touchdowns in 18 career games. He looked bad week 1 this year (Against a fringe top 5 WR), but has been his typical great self since then. Week 2 vs. the Browns, Lattimore allowed 3 catches for 22 yards, had 5 tackles, and a Forced Fumble Week 3 vs. the Falcons, Lattimore covered Julio Jones for most of the game until midway through the 3rd quarter when Lattimore switched to cover Ridley. Up until that point Lattimore held Julio Jones to a whopping 22 receiving yards on 2 catches. Once Lattimore switched onto Ridley. Ridley had a whopping 1 catch for 8 yards against Lattimore. In other words, Lattimore has had 1 bad performance and 2 great ones this year. We also can't just ignore his excellent body of work during his rookie year, so yeah, Lattimore is still a great player for us.. I will say that my previous response was a bit in jest regarding the Falcons not having talented players, as I do think they have some talented young defenders, but it was largely due to the absurd comment about the Saints having "exactly 1 good defensive player". That said, if you are going to include guys like Takk Mckinley, then I'd certainly say Marcus Davenport is extremely promising as he is one of the biggest athletic freaks at his position in the NFL. He needs to work on some pass rush moves still, but his power, and explosive acceleration have already been put to good use for us, as evidenced by some of these plays last week against the Falcons where he completely drove their OL backwards several times: If we are including injured guys, Patrick Robinson was rated as the top slot CB in the NFL by PFF last year, he was doing good for us before he was injured last game. Marcus Williams has also been extremely promising. Demario Davis has also started to look good for us, as he has been a good player the past several years, and had an 87.3 PFF grade last season. you called me a homer and you just comapred davenport to mckinley. Mckinley had 6 sacks as a rookie last year and 2 in 2 games this year. youre a big fan of providing clips which means absolutely nothing. Literally anyone can look amazing for 5 plays. Deion Jones and Keanu Neal are all pro type players, thats not davis or williams. This isnt a comparison of kinda, maybe good guys if you limit them only to what there good at. Falcons unquestionably have more talent, juts so happens a lot of those guys are hurt. Lattimores pff grade is 62 this year, im not a huge believer in pff but since you included some of their grades i imagine you are. Thats not a good grade. Having an awful corner opposite you so yo dont get targeted doesnt make you a good player per say. The mere fact that your mentioning guys like Demario Davis says everything. Jones, Neal, Jarrett are unquestionably extremely good. The saints have one player like that. Corner play has extreme variance except for a couple elite guys and Lattimore is off to a poor start, and note im not mentioning trufant who has consistently been a top 10-12 corner the last few years. Not 1, but 2-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Damn, son. Once Davenport actually gets some technique, look out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 18 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: you called me a homer and you just comapred davenport to mckinley. Mckinley had 6 sacks as a rookie last year and 2 in 2 games this year. youre a big fan of providing clips which means absolutely nothing. Literally anyone can look amazing for 5 plays. Deion Jones and Keanu Neal are all pro type players, thats not davis or williams. This isnt a comparison of kinda, maybe good guys if you limit them only to what there good at. Falcons unquestionably have more talent, juts so happens a lot of those guys are hurt. Lattimores pff grade is 62 this year, im not a huge believer in pff but since you included some of their grades i imagine you are. Thats not a good grade. Having an awful corner opposite you so yo dont get targeted doesnt make you a good player per say. The mere fact that your mentioning guys like Demario Davis says everything. Jones, Neal, Jarrett are unquestionably extremely good. The saints have one player like that. Corner play has extreme variance except for a couple elite guys and Lattimore is off to a poor start, and note im not mentioning trufant who has consistently been a top 10-12 corner the last few years. Not 1, but 2-3. The fact that you are grasping at every straw to discredit Lattimore's excellent start to his career (Minus 1 bad game to start the year) is laughable. He has been excellent 2 out of 3 games this year. To use a PFF grade after 3 games is a weak point. It's one thing to use a PFF grade through an entire year, or at least half a year, but after 3 games...LOL. Yeah I'll gladly provide clips, as they are fun to watch, but I also add substance regarding players as well...Sooo your point? Yeah I'll mention Demario Davis, the guy had 135 tackles, 5 sacks, and 3 pass breakups last year to go along with his 87.3 PFF grade last year. You act like Deion Jones has been way better than Demario Davis. Last year Deion Jones had 138 tackles (3 more than Davis), 1 sack (4 less than davis), 3 interceptions (3 more than Davis), and an 89.6 PFF grade. Not exactly a big difference in production between them last year. So tell me then, you state that Deion Jones, and Keanu Neal are "All Pro type players", how many All-Pro's awards have they gotten? They have been in the league a combined 4 seasons prior to this year. I'm seeing 2 pro bowl appearances, and 0 All Pro awards... Marcus Williams was rated as the top rookie Safety last year in a pretty deep safety class by many publications, and made the All-Rookie team. By your logic, I have every right to call Lattimore, and Williams "all-pro type players", or I suppose as I'd put it All-Pro type talents as none of these players listed in our conversation have gotten an All-Pro (except Cam Jordan). Marshon Lattimore has as many Pro Bowl appearances as Deion Jones, and Keanu Neal (1 each, but Lattimore has also played 1 less season). If I recall neither of them were Defensive Rookie of the year either like Lattimore was.. Or should we keep calling 0 time Pro Bowl/All Pro Grady Jarrett an "Extremely Good" player. By this grading system, I'd call Sheldon Rankins an "Extremely Good" player. Grady Jarrett has played in 50 NFL games, he has 8 career sacks, 0 forced fumbles, and 75 career tackles. Sheldon Rankins has played in 28 career games (22 less games than Jarrett), he has 7 career sacks (1 less than Jarrett), 2 forced fumbles (2 more than Jarrett), and 37 tackles (A very similar tackles per game average (1.5 for Jarrett, 1.3 for Rankins). You listed Mckinley, who has talent, but has hardly shown that much production so far in his NFL career, so I listed Davenport who also has shown talent, but has hardly show that much production so far in his NFL career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 32 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said: Damn, son. Once Davenport actually gets some technique, look out. Yeah I'm excited to see how he develops. The physical talent he has is insane just hoping he can continue to refine his game as he could be a really good one for us if he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, tyler735 said: The fact that you are grasping at every straw to discredit Lattimore's excellent start to his career (Minus 1 bad game to start the year) is laughable. He has been excellent 2 out of 3 games this year. To use a PFF grade after 3 games is a weak point. It's one thing to use a PFF grade through an entire year, or at least half a year, but after 3 games...LOL. Yeah I'll gladly provide clips, as they are fun to watch, but I also add substance regarding players as well...Sooo your point? Yeah I'll mention Demario Davis, the guy had 135 tackles, 5 sacks, and 3 pass breakups last year to go along with his 87.3 PFF grade last year. You act like Deion Jones has been way better than Demario Davis. Last year Deion Jones had 138 tackles (3 more than Davis), 1 sack (4 less than davis), 3 interceptions (3 more than Davis), and an 89.6 PFF grade. Not exactly a big difference in production between them last year. So tell me then, you state that Deion Jones, and Keanu Neal are "All Pro type players", how many All-Pro's awards have they gotten? They have been in the league a combined 4 seasons prior to this year. I'm seeing 2 pro bowl appearances, and 0 All Pro awards... Marcus Williams was rated as the top rookie Safety last year in a pretty deep safety class by many publications, and made the All-Rookie team. By your logic, I have every right to call Lattimore, and Williams "all-pro type players", or I suppose as I'd put it All-Pro type talents as none of these players listed in our conversation have gotten an All-Pro (except Cam Jordan). Marshon Lattimore has as many Pro Bowl appearances as Deion Jones, and Keanu Neal (1 each, but Lattimore has also played 1 less season). If I recall neither of them were Defensive Rookie of the year either like Lattimore was.. Or should we keep calling 0 time Pro Bowl/All Pro Grady Jarrett an "Extremely Good" player. By this grading system, I'd call Sheldon Rankins an "Extremely Good" player. Grady Jarrett has played in 50 NFL games, he has 8 career sacks, 0 forced fumbles, and 75 career tackles. Sheldon Rankins has played in 28 career games (22 less games than Jarrett), he has 7 career sacks (1 less than Jarrett), 2 forced fumbles (2 more than Jarrett), and 37 tackles (A very similar tackles per game average (1.5 for Jarrett, 1.3 for Rankins). You listed Mckinley, who has talent, but has hardly shown that much production so far in his NFL career, so I listed Davenport who also has shown talent, but has hardly show that much production so far in his NFL career. youre a homer, we know this. feel free to start a poll on who the better lb is, jones or davis. what do you think the results would be? and neal and jones are both all pro type... they both got votes last year. if they won i just wouldve called them all pro. make sense? and you seem to have a really hard time understanding corner play. theres extremely high variance year to year. its well documented. lattimore was really good last year, hes been bad this year. if hes been as excellent as you claim for two games then his grade wouldnt be where it is. maybe he turns it around, i dont have a crysral ball. not even debating mckinley vs davenport anymore. amazing its even a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 24 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: youre a homer, we know this. Pot calling the kettle black here lol 24 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: feel free to start a poll on who the better lb is, jones or davis. what do you think the results would be? I don't doubt Jones wins the poll, but it still doesn't mean he is way better than Davis. 24 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: and neal and jones are both all pro type... they both got votes last year. if they won i just wouldve called them all pro. make sense? Sweet Lattimore was also in the discussion, but none of them got an All-Pro. 24 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: and you seem to have a really hard time understanding corner play. theres extremely high variance year to year. its well documented. lattimore was really good last year, hes been bad this year. if hes been as excellent as you claim for two games then his grade wouldnt be where it is. maybe he turns it around, i dont have a crysral ball. 1 bad game and 2 great games won't skew a PFF grade that much, but I'll gladly take Lattimore over any Falcons defender given his great 18 game resume so far in his career. 24 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: not even debating mckinley vs davenport anymore. amazing its even a debate. Good there's not much to debate since both are more potential than production thus far in their careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 13 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Pot calling the kettle black here lol I don't doubt Jones wins the poll, but it still doesn't mean he is way better than Davis. Sweet Lattimore was also in the discussion, but none of them got an All-Pro. 1 bad game and 2 great games won't skew a PFF grade that much, but I'll gladly take Lattimore over any Falcons defender given his great 18 game resume so far in his career. Good there's not much to debate since both are more potential than production thus far in their careers. yes, it does mean exactly that. jones is way better than davis. exavtly, they didnt win. which for a 2nd time is why i called them all pro type and not all pro. not sure why that had to he said twice. i dont care about last year for lattimorr. you can ignore the fact that there high variance year to year at corner if you want. he needs to repear last year before qe say anythu g definitive going forward. hes of to a bad start but maybe he turns it around. Math is also taking a hit here, if lattimore has aa good as games as you claim, his score wouldnt be where it is. one guy has 8 sacks, the other has 1. enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, GSUeagles14 said: yes, it does mean exactly that. jones is way better than davis. Nope Quote exavtly, they didnt win. which for a 2nd time is why i called them all pro type and not all pro. not sure why that had to he said twice. Which is why I can call Lattimore, and Williams this made up "all pro type" as well... Quote i dont care about last year for lattimorr. you can ignore the fact that there high variance year to year at corner if you want. he needs to repear last year before qe say anythu g definitive going forward. hes of to a bad start but maybe he turns it around. Math is also taking a hit here, if lattimore has aa good as games as you claim, his score wouldnt be where it is. He's had 1 bad game, and 2 great games after a Rookie of the year pro bowl season. That's not a bad start, that is 1 bad game. The irony is, you say you don't care much for PFF, but continue to cite it through Lattimore's first 3 games, so if that is how we're going to do this: Marcus Williams- 60.4 PFF grade this year.. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/marcus-williams/11797 Keanu Neal- 62.4 PFF grade this year.. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/keanu-neal/10651 Vonn Bell- 74.6 PFF grade this year.. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/vonn-bell/10695 Takk McKinley- 54.4 PFF grade this year.. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/takkarist-mckinley/11781 Marcus Davenport- 72.7 PFF grade this year.. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/marcus-davenport/50291 Desmond Trufant- 65.2 PFF grade this year.. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/desmond-trufant/7803 Cameron Jordan- 82.4 PFF grade this year.. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/cameron-jordan/6176 Grady Jarrett- 78.5 PFF grade this year.. https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/grady-jarrett/9570 In other words, those scores through 3 games are pretty much useless. Not going to tell us much without a bigger sample size later in the year. Quote one guy has 8 sacks, the other has 1. enough said. One guy has played has played in 18 games and has gotten 8 sacks the other has played in 3 games and gotten 1 sack. Neither are anything to write home about. I feel like this is akin to bragging about being the worlds tallest midget lol. Neither have done much in their NFL careers, they are both young very talented pass rushers who are still looking to put it all together. This would be like me saying Alex Okafor is a better player than Takk Mckinley because Okafor has gotten 8 sacks in a season, and Takk has 8 sacks in his career.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid Iowa Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 4 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said: youre a homer, we know this. feel free to start a poll on who the better lb is, jones or davis. what do you think the results would be? and neal and jones are both all pro type... they both got votes last year. if they won i just wouldve called them all pro. make sense? and you seem to have a really hard time understanding corner play. theres extremely high variance year to year. its well documented. lattimore was really good last year, hes been bad this year. if hes been as excellent as you claim for two games then his grade wouldnt be where it is. maybe he turns it around, i dont have a crysral ball. not even debating mckinley vs davenport anymore. amazing its even a debate. They sure did a bang-up job only allowing 143 rushing yards, and 396 passing yards last Sunday. Compared to the Saints piss-poor front 7 allowing a whopping 48 yards. Not bad for 11 on 1 drills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Slim Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 incidentally it hasn’t been awesome but they’ve faced some damn high powered offenses in tampa and atlanta, and cleveland have a lot of weapons as well maybe we should ease up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Mid Iowa said: They sure did a bang-up job only allowing 143 rushing yards, and 396 passing yards last Sunday. Compared to the Saints piss-poor front 7 allowing a whopping 48 yards. Not bad for 11 on 1 drills. honestly dude you might as well just said thats not what you mom said last night. Wouldve been just a tad bit smarter. Anyway... Saints are last in points allowed, 28th in DVOA and i think 29th in total yards. Last week specifically they let up 407 yds and 37 pts. Neither this season nor last wek have they been good. Theyve been very, very bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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