Week 4: VIKINGS (1-1-1) at Rams (3-0)

[SemperFeist]

1 minute ago, Cearbhall said:

I don't want to sound like I think any of the options the Vikings could have picked at QB including the additional pieces the team could have afforded with those options would have resulted in a win today. However, the Cousins contract is a big constraint that prevents the team from upgrading other areas of the team via free agency. One big area that could have been addressed better in free agency is the offensive line. I would have liked to throw the money at Andrew Norwell. Also, the team could have kept Jarius Wright or signed another competent WR so they did not have to rely on undrafted guys like Zylstra beating out Treadwell.

Any QB contract was going to be a constraint. The Vikings had to pay a QB. So it’s still unlikely that they would have been able to sign one of those top o-linemen with a QB. 

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

5 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Cousins turnovers should have resulted in a loss against GB (stupid penalty on Mathews saved him), put the Vikes in a terrible spot to start the game against Buffalo (a game the Vikes needed to win) and ruined a chance at a comeback against the Rams.

Cousins has nice stats for sure but there is something lacking that likely excludes him from the top 10 QB discussion.

Exactly.

He's playing amazing. 

Are we in the games against Green Bay and Rams without Kirk? HIGHLY doubt it.

But in the same, he's turned the ball over 5 times in 4 games. 3 were absolutely crippling (two fumbles last week and the last fumble tonight).

He absolutely cannot do that. He needs to have pocket presence. He just can't keep double clutching in the pocket and then fumble.

He's playing great be there's much to be desired.

[vikesfan89]

1 minute ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

Exactly.

He's playing amazing. 

Are we in the games against Green Bay and Rams without Kirk? HIGHLY doubt it.

But in the same, he's turned the ball over 5 times in 4 games. 3 were absolutely crippling (two fumbles last week and the last fumble tonight).

He absolutely cannot do that. He needs to have pocket presence. He just can't keep double clutching in the pocket and then fumble.

He's playing great be there's much to be desired.

Are you moving the goal posts?

[Cearbhall]

Just now, SemperFeist said:

Any QB contract was going to be a constraint. The Vikings had to pay a QB. So it’s still unlikely that they would have been able to sign one of those top o-linemen with a QB. 

I don't know about that. Teddy signed for something like $5M. If the team rolled with him they would have easily been able to afford a top o-linemen. Signing Keenum would have saved the Vikings $9M against the cap (assuming they signed him to the same contract he signed with Denver).  With that the team could have signed Norwell to a contract that devoted $4M more to the cap this year than the contract that Norwell actually signed up for.

I am not trying to suggest that signing Cousins was the wrong move. Just answering the question of what Cousins' contract prevented the team from doing.

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

1 minute ago, vikesfan89 said:

Are you moving the goal posts?

No. You just missed what I've been trying to say. For 3 pages now.

I was a HUUUUGE Kirk supporter. Still am. But $84 million QBs can't lead the league in turnovers.

Not my problem you can't understand it or read my posts. 

[vikingsrule]

Just now, Cearbhall said:

I don't know about that. Teddy signed for something like $5M. If the team rolled with him they would have easily been able to afford a top o-linemen. Signing Keenum would have saved the Vikings $9M against the cap (assuming they signed him to the same contract he signed with Denver).  With that the team could have signed Norwell to a contract that devoted $4M more to the cap this year than the contract that Norwell actually signed up for.

I am not trying to suggest that signing Cousins was the wrong move. Just answering the question of what Cousins' contract prevented the team from doing.

Teddy's proven to be about a high level backup caliber QB and fringe starter and I doubt Keenum makes half the big throws that Cousins has made this year. Keenum isn't bringing MN back like Cousins did against GB. While Keenum did some nice things in the pocket and avoided careless fumbles, he couldn't read a defense and focused on his top option far too often. Keenum and Teddys arm talent is not even close to Cousins

[vikesfan89]

1 hour ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

He wasn't. But he lost a dual to Goff.

Aren't you paying him to win those duals?

But overall, not on him.

Where's the defense??? MIA all year

Ah I see. You edit the parts about the defense in.

You said he lost a dual to Goff and he is paid to win those. That's not blaming him for the loss?

[vikesfan89]

1 minute ago, vikingsrule said:

Teddy's proven to be about a high level backup caliber QB and fringe starter and I doubt Keenum makes half the big throws that Cousins has made this year. Keenum isn't bringing MN back like Cousins did against GB. While Keenum did some nice things in the pocket and avoided careless fumbles, he couldn't read a defense and focused on his top option far too often. Keenum and Teddys arm talent is not even close to Cousins

With this team the Vikings couldn't take a chance on Teddy being fully healthy and better than before

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

2 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

Ah I see. You edit the parts about the defense in.

You said he lost a dual to Goff and he is paid to win those. That's not blaming him for the loss?

I didn't edit anything to change my points. Spelling and grammar, yes. Look at the edit times if you need to feel validated. Nice try though. Is that what you're reduced to?

And he DID lose a dual with Goff. Did you not watch the game? He lost it to a 3rd year QB when both defenses looked like GARBAGE.

My God.

Grasp at straws, kiddo.

 

[SemperFeist]

14 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I don't know about that. Teddy signed for something like $5M. If the team rolled with him they would have easily been able to afford a top o-linemen. Signing Keenum would have saved the Vikings $9M against the cap (assuming they signed him to the same contract he signed with Denver).  With that the team could have signed Norwell to a contract that devoted $4M more to the cap this year than the contract that Norwell actually signed up for.

I am not trying to suggest that signing Cousins was the wrong move. Just answering the question of what Cousins' contract prevented the team from doing.

But you can’t look at Norwell’s contract as strictly this year’s cap hit. Yes, it’s not a big number this year, but it triples next year. How does that fit with the other moves? 

And Bridgewater signed as a FA with the Jets to fight for playing time. Hard to believe he would have signed that same contract to be the unquestioned starter. And then what happens beyond this year when you need to pay a QB again? Same with Keenum, he likely had a bit more leverage for a better contract with MN before FA started, than once he hit FA, so that contract would likely be a bit bigger as well.

Even with Cousins, this team was able to go out and sign Richardson. So I still can’t say that the QB contract prevented them from going after an o-linemen. They chose not too. 

[Cearbhall]

1 minute ago, vikingsrule said:

Teddy's proven to be about a high level backup caliber QB and fringe starter and I doubt Keenum makes half the big throws that Cousins has made this year. Keenum isn't bringing MN back like Cousins did against GB. While Keenum did some nice things in the pocket and avoided careless fumbles, he couldn't read a defense and focused on his top option far too often. Keenum and Teddys arm talent is not even close to Cousins

Yeah, my post wasn't even trying to suggest that the team would be winning more with the alternatives they had.  I was answering the question which was about what Cousins' contract prevents the team from doing. His contract prevents them from doing plenty. It really ties their hands in terms of flexibility with other signings.

While I disagree with your assertion that Keenum couldn't read a defense I agree that Keenum and Teddy do not have arm talent anywhere near Kirk Cousins. That hardly matters though as it completely misses the point of the my post.

[vikesfan89]

2 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

I didn't edit anything to change my points. Spelling and grammar, yes. Look at the edit times if you need to feel validated. Nice try though. Is that what you're reduced to?

And he DID lose a dual with Goff. Did you not watch the game? He lost it to a 3rd year QB when both defenses looked like GARBAGE.

My God.

Grasp at straws, kiddo.

 

Then how did I reply before you mention the defense? Look it up. I was trying to figure out how this conversation started since you have a different tone now but I realized you edited the first post that I responded to after I responded.

If you think the defenses played the same, more power to you

[Cearbhall]

5 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

But you can’t look at Norwell’s contract as strictly this year’s cap hit. Yes, it’s not a big number this year, but it triples next year. How does that fit with the other moves? 

And Bridgewater signed as a FA with the Jets to fight for playing time. Hard to believe he would have signed that same contract to be the unquestioned starter. And then what happens beyond this year when you need to pay a QB again? 

Even with Cousins, this team was able to go out and sign Richardson. So I still can’t say that the QB contract prevented them from going after an o-linemen. They chose not too. 

I agree with everything you said there except the assertion that the QB contract does not prevent the team from going out and signing talent at other positions -- whatever that may be that they wanted to sign. Cousins' contract most certainly does prevent the team from doing other things in free agency with that money. I don't think Wilf was just going to pocket the difference. That is not how he has been running the team.

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

1 hour ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

He wasn't. But he lost a dual to Goff.

Aren't you paying him to win those duals?

But overall, not on him.

Where's the defense??? MIA all year

Quote

He doesn't need to be perfect. Not at all. 

But he's turned the ball over 4 times in two games. That's unacceptable. 

4 times in 2 games. 

You can't turn the ball over in this league.

Quote

Yet he fumbled....again... When he needed to step up.

He did the same stuff in Washington.

Once again, I said this wasn't on Kirk but 5 turnovers in 4 games isn't promising from #8

Quote

 

I talked about the defense ALL GAME.

Cousins needs to be talked about for turning the ball over. 

Team loss. So why not call out the team? You CANNOT turn the ball over when you're going down to tie.

 

Quote

 

Exactly.

He's playing amazing. 

Are we in the games against Green Bay and Rams without Kirk? HIGHLY doubt it.

But in the same, he's turned the ball over 5 times in 4 games. 3 were absolutely crippling (two fumbles last week and the last fumble tonight).

He absolutely cannot do that. He needs to have pocket presence. He just can't keep double clutching in the pocket and then fumble.

He's playing great be there's much to be desired.

 

@vikesfan89

Here's all my posts regarding Kirk that also mention the defense or rest of team.

Please, tell me again how I'm editing my posts.

Tell me again how I'm putting this ALL on Kirk.

[marshpit23]

2 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said:

I didn't edit anything to change my points. Spelling and grammar, yes. Look at the edit times if you need to feel validated. Nice try though. Is that what you're reduced to?

And he DID lose a dual with Goff. Did you not watch the game? He lost it to a 3rd year QB when both defenses looked like GARBAGE.

My God.

Grasp at straws, kiddo.

 

Team game, kid (I’m old, so mean this as disrespect). We win and lose as a team. It’s extremely difficult to isolate one player in a loss/win. Understandable the QB takes on the onus of the win/loss. And I agree, Cousins needs to exhibit greater ball control. This wasn’t strictly a Goff vs. Cousins experience. With that said, the defense had a ton to do with the outcome of this game; both defenses. When it counted, LA’s defense made the plays to win. The Cousin’s fumble was very unfortunate, especially considering the very recent past. This was a team loss. A very. Unfortunate loss, as we had an opportunity to pick up a difficult road win.