Could Patricia/Wilks be one and done coaches?

[Soko]

25 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Well, it's too late at that point. But I hear him out, explain to him why I think it's necessary, and tell him that we'll reevaluate the need of it after practice. Then again, I doubt I'd have them practicing in snow just to make a point. The game this Sunday will be in a dome.

“I mean, towards the end of the season, we're going to be in Green Bay and then we're going to be in Buffalo...You know, so, you don't want to try and get prepared for those the week of. It's a preparation thing, so you want to be ready for those whenever the time comes. You don't want to have to wait and practice outside for two days or three days and then have to go there and it's way colder than what you expect it to be...So, like I said, we strap it up and we go out there and grind and whatever it is, it is, and we just got to go handle it."

That’s Blount (of all people), one of the few player on that roster that’s been a part of championship teams. I don’t expect you to change your opinion - you seldom do - but complaining about practice? The guys seem soft. Bob Quinn said as much in the offseason. 

I’m not saying that Patricia can’t better his chemistry with the players or do more to garner their respect (both of which are mandatory aspects of coaching) but from an outside POV there are enough rumblings to raise suspicion about this team’s toughness. They’re 3-6 and will be traveling to cold weather venues in the future, they shouldn’t be whining about this. 

[jrry32]

1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

“I mean, towards the end of the season, we're going to be in Green Bay and then we're going to be in Buffalo...You know, so, you don't want to try and get prepared for those the week of. It's a preparation thing, so you want to be ready for those whenever the time comes. You don't want to have to wait and practice outside for two days or three days and then have to go there and it's way colder than what you expect it to be...So, like I said, we strap it up and we go out there and grind and whatever it is, it is, and we just got to go handle it."

That’s Blount (of all people), one of the few player on that roster that’s been a part of championship teams. I don’t expect you to change your opinion - you seldom do - but complaining about practice? The guys seem soft. Bob Quinn said as much in the offseason. 

I’m not saying that Patricia can’t better his chemistry with the players or do more to garner their respect (both of which are mandatory aspects of coaching) but from an outside POV there are enough rumblings to raise suspicion about this team’s toughness. They’re 3-6 and will be traveling to cold weather venues in the future, they shouldn’t be whining about this. 

Should I expect you to change your opinion? You have Blount giving his opinion. I have Slay disagreeing. Both are NFL players. You are choosing to attack Slay for his take. I think it's entirely unnecessary to prepare for snow now. They don't play the Bills for another month and the Packers for another six weeks. What is one practice in the snow going to do for them when the games are that far off? 

From an outside POV, that move is the sort that doesn't better chemistry with players and doesn't garner their respect. It's the sort of move a coach who wants to prove how tough he is makes. I don't see the majority of top NFL coaches pulling stunts like that. McVay certainly doesn't. Frankly, I think you missed the point of the "whining." It's frustrating that the coach is putting them through something so unnecessary just to make a point. This isn't high school. This is professional football.

[Soko]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

Should I expect you to change your opinion? You have Blount giving his opinion. I have Slay disagreeing. Both are NFL players. You are choosing to attack Slay for his take.

Meh, I guess calling him a whiner is an “attack”? Shrug. 

But yeah, that’s the point of a debate isn’t it? At least part of it. I’ve seen you go down with the ship, though. 

Both are NFL players - only one has been a part of multiple championship cultures. 

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I think it's entirely unnecessary to prepare for snow now. They don't play the Bills for another month and the Packers for another six weeks. What is one practice in the snow going to do for them when the games are that far off? 

Again, it’s a toughness/preparedness thing. NE is routinely prepared/unaffected by snow, and Patricia obviously learned that when he was here. Is practice always supposed to be easy and pleasant?

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From an outside POV, that move is the sort that doesn't better chemistry with players and doesn't garner their respect. It's the sort of move a coach who wants to prove how tough he is makes. I don't see the majority of top NFL coaches pulling stunts like that. McVay certainly doesn't. Frankly, I think you missed the point of the "whining." It's frustrating that the coach is putting them through something so unnecessary just to make a point. This isn't high school. This is professional football.

And Belichick does. I don’t follow other teams’ practices enough to speak on the majority of top coaches. 

You’re attributing this as some sort of power play or statement instead of exactly what it seems to be - toughening up an undisciplined team and preparing them for future games in cold weather. Not every move he does has to be to win the locker room over - there’s a reason he’s the coach and they’re the players. 

Quinn outlined what he wanted, Patricia agreed, and this is the result. The fact that players (I remember there being talk in camp about practice being too hard but I’m not 100% sure) are whining about it just reinforces that they needed more discipline. If the GM during your interview talks about toughening up the team, I’d assume the coach would take steps to do just that, even if it makes some of them unhappy.

EDIT: Funny that this near-same scenario just happened this past week elsewhere and not only is no one bringing it up, but there haven’t been any vocal player complaints. Championship coordinator-turned first year HC has his sub.-500 team practicing in the freezing weather despite an indoor game this weekend, citing desire for toughness and confidence in bad weather as the main reason. It’s Reich, who I guess is also just going out of his way to make a point and prove how tough he is?

[DirtyDez]

I’ll let you know Sunday afternoon.

[jrry32]

35 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Meh, I guess calling him a whiner is an “attack”? Shrug. 

But yeah, that’s the point of a debate isn’t it? At least part of it. I’ve seen you go down with the ship, though. 

Both are NFL players - only one has been a part of multiple championship cultures. 

If the point of the debate is coming into it with an open mind, you failed to do that. At least I don't pretend to be something I am not. You came into the "debate" acting like you had the facts and the only right answer. Your opinion isn't fact, and you should not expect me to change my opinion simply because you don't agree. And if it isn't evident, I'm not afraid to go down with the ship. That's part of taking a stand. 

As for both being NFL players, one is an All Pro. The other is a journeyman. Yet, you're attacking the All Pro and taking the journeyman's opinion as the gospel. I do not care that Blount has been part of "championship cultures." Andrew Whitworth hasn't been part of any "championship cultures," but I'd value his opinion over Blount's without a second thought.

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Again, it’s a toughness/preparedness thing. NE is routinely prepared/unaffected by snow, and Patricia obviously learned that when he was here. Is practice always supposed to be easy and pleasant?

And Belichick does. I don’t follow other teams’ practices enough to speak on the majority of top coaches. 

 

Practice is supposed to be about preparing for your opponent and protecting your guys. The tough guy coaches who feel the need to prove to the team who is the boss have a habit of not lasting long. Belichick is the exception, not the rule. Many recent coaches have tried to take the hard arse approach and fallen flat on their faces.

And again, you're not about to sell me that a practice in the snow now is going to be what makes the difference in a month. 

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You’re attributing this as some sort of power play or statement instead of exactly what it seems to be - toughening up an undisciplined team and preparing them for future games in cold weather. Not every move he does has to be to win the locker room over - there’s a reason he’s the coach and they’re the players. 

And that's the exact mindset that gets coaches fired. "I'm coach, and you're the player. What I say goes." That shtick doesn't work when you're coaching grown men who are paid to play the game. The thing I love about McVay is that he doesn't feel the need to prove to the players who is boss. Our teams manages to be disciplined because the players respect him and work hard for him. Why do they do that? Because they know he respects them and goes out of his way to protect them.

I'm attributing this to being a power play or statement because that's what it is. You even tacitly admit that. You say it's about toughening up an undisciplined team. That's a statement and a power play. You don't need to pull stunts like that to instill discipline. That only becomes necessary when the players aren't responding to what you're doing. Again, Belichick is the exception these days, not the rule. There's a reason his assistants haven't been successful. I thought Patricia had the smarts to recognize that and not try to be a mini-Belichick. Unfortunately, it's looking like that's not true.

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Quinn outlined what he wanted, Patricia agreed, and this is the result. The fact that players (I remember there being talk in camp about practice being too hard but I’m not 100% sure) are whining about it just reinforces that they needed more discipline. If the GM during your interview talks about toughening up the team, I’d assume the coach would take steps to do just that, even if it makes some of them unhappy.

No, the fact that the Lions are doing worse and the players are unhappy should tell you that it's not working. As I said before, pulling stunts like that to try and instill discipline does not reflect well on a coach.

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EDIT: Funny that this near-same scenario just happened this past week elsewhere and not only is no one bringing it up, but there haven’t been any vocal player complaints. Championship coordinator-turned first year HC has his sub.-500 team practicing in the freezing weather despite an indoor game this weekend, citing desire for toughness and confidence in bad weather as the main reason. It’s Reich, who I guess is also just going out of his way to make a point and prove how tough he is?

I think it's a silly idea for Reich too, but there seems to be less risk for him because he's not having chemistry issues as far as I am aware. It's also a really odd decision because the Colts aren't even guaranteed to play a cold-weather game. The only possibilities are the Jaguars (highly unlikely) and the Titans (possible).

[Jakuvious]

The article suggested that Slay's complain was about the snow, not the cold.

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Slay said he was able to get his work done for the day, but practicing outside in the snow was "rough." While he's accustomed to playing in cold games -- Detroit has played in Green Bay and Chicago late in the year during his career -- Thursday's practice was different because of the snow.

Which I get. The cold you just kind of suck it up. The snow is actually going to slow things down and make it a less productive practice, though. And snow games are so few and far between.

I don't buy the preparation argument, though. Like, why are you looking ahead to a game a month and a half away? Where there might not be snow or cold anyway. It would be like practicing with artificial crowd noise when you have 3 straight home games followed by a game in LA against the Chargers. Every coach ever talks about focusing on just the next week, and suddenly we care about the weather 5 weeks down the road. I don't buy it. It just seems like a tough coach shtick. And most people, not even just NFL players, don't respond well to that kind of coaching/leadership. It's also likely a failure of explanation. If my boss tells me to do something in a way that seems unnecessarily tedious or unpleasant, I'm going to ask why. If there's a good reason, okay, that's annoying but I'll get it done. If there's not, I'll absolutely be unhappy.

[N4L]

It's all about how the team responds to it. If they are all true professionals they will go about their business and deal with whatever they have to deal with. The guys that complain about the snow don't have the right mindset. It's about mental toughness, and overcoming any obstical. 

Patricia is trying to change the culture. This is a test to see who is buying in. The guys that think this is stupid are thinking too much about the coach and not enough about their individual responsibilities as part of the team. 

It's smarter than you give him credit for @jrry32 this roster is going to get overhauled in the next few years. Whether or not he finds the right guys is another story but he will not be unsuccessful because he practiced in the snow in Detroit in his first year. 

Not a chance he doesn't get 3+ years there.

Again, this is a test of how much his guys are buying in. The ones who don't buy in will stick out like a sore thumb  

[TecmoSuperJoe]

I wonder what Jim Caldwell thinks.

[theuntouchable]

7 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Yeah, it strikes me as funny that people still think there's merit to the hard-arse approach. I'm not saying that it's an ineffective approach, but its effectiveness will depend on the coach. However, it's an approach that I personally would not want if I were GMing a team.

Well, it's too late at that point. But I hear him out, explain to him why I think it's necessary, and tell him that we'll reevaluate the need of it after practice. Then again, I doubt I'd have them practicing in snow just to make a point. The game this Sunday will be in a dome.

So how do you know that didn’t take place? What would you do if that did take place and the player still made that comment? 

[theuntouchable]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

“I mean, towards the end of the season, we're going to be in Green Bay and then we're going to be in Buffalo...You know, so, you don't want to try and get prepared for those the week of. It's a preparation thing, so you want to be ready for those whenever the time comes. You don't want to have to wait and practice outside for two days or three days and then have to go there and it's way colder than what you expect it to be...So, like I said, we strap it up and we go out there and grind and whatever it is, it is, and we just got to go handle it."

That’s Blount (of all people), one of the few player on that roster that’s been a part of championship teams. I don’t expect you to change your opinion - you seldom do - but complaining about practice? The guys seem soft. Bob Quinn said as much in the offseason. 

I’m not saying that Patricia can’t better his chemistry with the players or do more to garner their respect (both of which are mandatory aspects of coaching) but from an outside POV there are enough rumblings to raise suspicion about this team’s toughness. They’re 3-6 and will be traveling to cold weather venues in the future, they shouldn’t be whining about this. 

It’s not just the rumblings that display soft players. As they say the proof is in the pudding with most of the Sunday results. 

[theuntouchable]

6 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Should I expect you to change your opinion? You have Blount giving his opinion. I have Slay disagreeing. Both are NFL players. You are choosing to attack Slay for his take. I think it's entirely unnecessary to prepare for snow now. They don't play the Bills for another month and the Packers for another six weeks. What is one practice in the snow going to do for them when the games are that far off? 

From an outside POV, that move is the sort that doesn't better chemistry with players and doesn't garner their respect. It's the sort of move a coach who wants to prove how tough he is makes. I don't see the majority of top NFL coaches pulling stunts like that. McVay certainly doesn't. Frankly, I think you missed the point of the "whining." It's frustrating that the coach is putting them through something so unnecessary just to make a point. This isn't high school. This is professional football.

You think it’s entirely unnecessary ..... are you an nfl coach? What makes your opinion any more relevant than any of ours? 

I absolutely agree with your last two statements. This is professional football with grown *** men that make millions of dollars playing this game. You’re basically acting like it would be OK in high school but not the NFL? Why not?? This team needs some kind of a wake up. They have a decent amount of talented pieces and have displayed some great football (not much but still) yet they’ve gotten their ***** handed to them the last few weeks. Against NE and against Miami they looked great. Lately, they’ve looked absolutely terrible. 

Something had to be done and I can’t say I disagree with doing something different. 

[theuntouchable]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Meh, I guess calling him a whiner is an “attack”? Shrug. 

But yeah, that’s the point of a debate isn’t it? At least part of it. I’ve seen you go down with the ship, though. 

Both are NFL players - only one has been a part of multiple championship cultures. 

Again, it’s a toughness/preparedness thing. NE is routinely prepared/unaffected by snow, and Patricia obviously learned that when he was here. Is practice always supposed to be easy and pleasant?

And Belichick does. I don’t follow other teams’ practices enough to speak on the majority of top coaches. 

You’re attributing this as some sort of power play or statement instead of exactly what it seems to be - toughening up an undisciplined team and preparing them for future games in cold weather. Not every move he does has to be to win the locker room over - there’s a reason he’s the coach and they’re the players. 

Quinn outlined what he wanted, Patricia agreed, and this is the result. The fact that players (I remember there being talk in camp about practice being too hard but I’m not 100% sure) are whining about it just reinforces that they needed more discipline. If the GM during your interview talks about toughening up the team, I’d assume the coach would take steps to do just that, even if it makes some of them unhappy.

EDIT: Funny that this near-same scenario just happened this past week elsewhere and not only is no one bringing it up, but there haven’t been any vocal player complaints. Championship coordinator-turned first year HC has his sub.-500 team practicing in the freezing weather despite an indoor game this weekend, citing desire for toughness and confidence in bad weather as the main reason. It’s Reich, who I guess is also just going out of his way to make a point and prove how tough he is?

There was rumors of players saying practice was too tough but it was never attributed to specific people so it’s hard to say if it was true.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

On 11/16/2018 at 7:17 AM, PapaShogun said:

Apparently zero Cardinals fans have faith in Wilks. Seems like he took a team that finished 8-8 the previous year, and made them worse with his changes. Firing a coach after one season is really a knee jerk move, but it really depends on the situation. Just speaking as a 49ers fan, Jim Tomsula for the 49ers clearly was in over his head. Chip Kelly along with GM Trent Baalke seemed like a shotgun wedding. It just wasn't going to work out either way. 

Starting a rookie QB with that OL isn't going to help Arizona either. They were an overachieving 8-8 team last year for sure

[Malik]

4 hours ago, N4L said:

It's all about how the team responds to it. If they are all true professionals they will go about their business and deal with whatever they have to deal with. The guys that complain about the snow don't have the right mindset. It's about mental toughness, and overcoming any obstical. 

Patricia is trying to change the culture. This is a test to see who is buying in. The guys that think this is stupid are thinking too much about the coach and not enough about their individual responsibilities as part of the team. 

It's smarter than you give him credit for @jrry32 this roster is going to get overhauled in the next few years. Whether or not he finds the right guys is another story but he will not be unsuccessful because he practiced in the snow in Detroit in his first year. 

Not a chance he doesn't get 3+ years there.

Again, this is a test of how much his guys are buying in. The ones who don't buy in will stick out like a sore thumb  

Eh. Laying out effective gameplans that help you win games > establishing a culture that you're hard as nails and won't take no guff. Being a better team and making the right decisions should be more important than "toughness" because this team has lost a lot of games that have nothing to do with their toughness. People know when they're working under someone who doesn't know what they're doing and can tell the difference between discipline and someone who who arbitrarily puts his team through things as an example of coaching.

[fortdetroit]

23 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Maybe this should be in a separate thread, I'll say it anyway. In this day and age, I don't see the point of hiring a coach that comes from a defensive background. It's an offensive league, and quarterback is the most important position. You won't have a good offensive coordinator, because they'll be snatched up for a HC gig. So then you're at the mercy of your coordinators and the offense changing when players need continuity. Particularly, you have a young quarterback that is supposed to be leading the franchise, why would you give yourself the potential problem of an offense changing from one year to another? 

 

Good post.  This is why I wanted the Lions to hire an offensive head coach last offseason.