This team needs a 2nd round WR/TE/RB or equivalent FA

[SSG]

1 minute ago, Victor1124 said:

A lot will depend on how active we are in free agency; the scenario I described would make me feel the most comfortable taking a WR or TE in the second. I do think we desperately need a playmaker who can attack the middle of the field. 

I think we have to go veteran Edge in free agency and 1st round Edge in the draft. That along with Perry,Fackrell, and Gilbert would make me somewhat comfortable about our Edge situation. 

Kevin King’s health makes our CB situation uncomfortable but If we resigned Breeland or another starting caliber free agent for multiple years, along with the amount of other needs we have. I’d be disappointed going corner early again. I’m sure King is on a short leash with his health but I doubt the Packers are ready to move on from him.

I'd throw my remote through the TV if we go all Matt Millen on this draft and spend yet another early pick on a CB.  The idea that you can't have success on defense without a half dozen first round CBs is crazy.  

 

Edge, WR and TE would be my priorities with my first 3 picks in any order.  That could also change depending on our activity in Free Agency.  I don't think Clowney, Flowers, Laurence or Clark are leaving their respective teams which dampens the edge group.  Also not enamored with the group at WR with a really old Golden Tate being the best of the group.  One thing for sure though, there are multiple ways to skin a cat.  We need a heavy dosage of UFA help and a quality draft if we're going to end this 2 year playoff drought.  

[vegas492]

13 minutes ago, Victor1124 said:

A lot will depend on how active we are in free agency; the scenario I described would make me feel the most comfortable taking a WR or TE in the second. I do think we desperately need a playmaker who can attack the middle of the field. 

I think we have to go veteran Edge in free agency and 1st round Edge in the draft. That along with Perry,Fackrell, and Gilbert would make me somewhat comfortable about our Edge situation. 

Kevin King’s health makes our CB situation uncomfortable but If we resigned Breeland or another starting caliber free agent for multiple years, along with the amount of other needs we have. I’d be disappointed going corner early again. I’m sure King is on a short leash with his health but I doubt the Packers are ready to move on from him.

Care to elaborate?

He's got what, two years left on his rookie deal?  I don't see a short leash there.  What I do see is that GB would be wise to look at a mid-round CB, for depth, in case injury hits him again.

I'm not ready to give up on Josh Jackson after one year.  Alexander can play.  Get Breeland back.  Tony Brown is moldable clay.  Throw a mid to late pick in there for depth and see what happens.

I do not want a corner before the fourth round.  I think you can win with those corners, especially if you find an EDGE rusher.  And there's much to like there in the draft.

[CWood21]

18 minutes ago, SSG said:

But it isn't.  The ONLY reason either MVS or EQ broke the WR rotation is because of injury to a terrible WR core (Cobb was a lot worse than I think anyone anticipated).  When that WR core was at at full strength and healthy  MVS was seeing 6 snaps a game (EQ didn't receive a snap on in any game that both Allison and Cobb played in).  In the  4 games in which we had all 3 starting WRs play (not necessarily 100% but on the field) he had just 3 catches for 48 yards (one of those catches being a 40 yarder).

I don't get the fascination  with the rookies.  For the most part MVS has been getting starting caliber snaps since week 4 because of the injuries.  He had a couple good games over that stretch but for the most part has struggled.  Over the last 5 games  he's contributed just 7 catches despite getting a massive snap count up until recently.   I know AR12 missed him once or twice but the idea that his lack of production is all the QB's fault is trash.  Heck,  EQ passed him on the depth chart 2 weeks ago and Kumerow had an equal snap count with the offense this last week.

Except MVS was breaking in early in preseason when he was playing incredibly well.  Remember how MVS had surpassed ESB and J'Mon Moore on the depth chart very early on?  MVS was our #4 WR to start the year behind Adams, Cobb, and Allison in large part due to the fact those 3 were the veteran WRs.  MVS got elevated to the #3 WR with the injury to Randall Cobb.  And he moved up to be the #2 WR after Allison was done for the year.  Now that Cobb is back, he's been relegated to the #3 WR.  And for whatever reason, him and ESB have seemed to have split the #3 role in recent weeks.  They went with the veteran WRs early on because they gave the Packers the best chance to win, especially more than a pair of rookie WRs.  As the season wore on, MVS forced his way into the lineup because of injury and his play.  Remember, the Packers felt no need to go out and sign a veteran WR when they lost Cobb and Allison to injury.

And it's not a fascination.  It's looking at the entire picture.  From Week 4 until Week 12, he played in at least 70% of the offensive snaps with the exception of the Rams game.  Over that period, he's got 26 receptions, 429 receiving yards, and 2 TD receptions.  That's pretty good production for a rookie WR.  If we were talking about investing a 2nd round pick in MVS, and he had this kind of production you'd be thrilled with him and his future.  But because he's a 5th round pick, he's replaceable.  He's top 10 among rookie WRs this year, and you're jumping at the opportunity to replace him.

[CWood21]

36 minutes ago, TheBitzMan said:

I am disputing your argument that the offense is doing fine without Kupp when every number/metric points to the opposite. Their offense relies so much on 11 personnel that losing one of the key pieces has effected them more than you are leading on. This is similar to what happened to Rodgers without Jordy. 

I am more in favor of the Packers investing in the defense but I wouldn't be upset if they went all in on offense. The quickest way for this team to contend is on offense. 

There's a stark difference between doing fine and doing what the Rams were doing.  The Rams were an elite offense when they had a healthy corps.  They're a really good offense without Kupp.  That's not really a crazy statement to make.  We're not seeing a Rams offense become completely inept because of the loss of Kupp.  Does it hurt?  Absolutely.

[Victor1124]

30 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Care to elaborate?

He's got what, two years left on his rookie deal?  I don't see a short leash there.  What I do see is that GB would be wise to look at a mid-round CB, for depth, in case injury hits him again.

I'm not ready to give up on Josh Jackson after one year.  Alexander can play.  Get Breeland back.  Tony Brown is moldable clay.  Throw a mid to late pick in there for depth and see what happens.

I do not want a corner before the fourth round.  I think you can win with those corners, especially if you find an EDGE rusher.  And there's much to like there in the draft.

I believe if King has another injury riddled season like he has had the last two years, the Packers would most likely prepare to move on from him when his rookie deal is over instead of planning on him being apart of the future. That is what I meant by short leash. 

I agree, it’s way too early to give up on Jackson. If they hypothetically bring Breeland back; they would have King, Breeland, Alexander, Jackson, and Brown. Going a corner early means they Packers would have to lose faith in either King staying healthy or Jackson improving. I don’t think they are ready to do either.

[SSG]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Except MVS was breaking in early in preseason when he was playing incredibly well.  Remember how MVS had surpassed ESB and J'Mon Moore on the depth chart very early on?  MVS was our #4 WR to start the year behind Adams, Cobb, and Allison in large part due to the fact those 3 were the veteran WRs.  MVS got elevated to the #3 WR with the injury to Randall Cobb.  And he moved up to be the #2 WR after Allison was done for the year.  Now that Cobb is back, he's been relegated to the #3 WR.  And for whatever reason, him and ESB have seemed to have split the #3 role in recent weeks.  They went with the veteran WRs early on because they gave the Packers the best chance to win, especially more than a pair of rookie WRs.  As the season wore on, MVS forced his way into the lineup because of injury and his play.  Remember, the Packers felt no need to go out and sign a veteran WR when they lost Cobb and Allison to injury.

And it's not a fascination.  It's looking at the entire picture.  From Week 4 until Week 12, he played in at least 70% of the offensive snaps with the exception of the Rams game.  Over that period, he's got 26 receptions, 429 receiving yards, and 2 TD receptions.  That's pretty good production for a rookie WR.  If we were talking about investing a 2nd round pick in MVS, and he had this kind of production you'd be thrilled with him and his future.  But because he's a 5th round pick, he's replaceable.  He's top 10 among rookie WRs this year, and you're jumping at the opportunity to replace him.

I put little into the preseason and it's because of guys like Jeff Janis and Brett Hundley.  Jefff Janis had multiple preseasons as our leading receiver.

The Packers didn't see the need to sign a starting caliber Safety either this year, it doesn't mean we're great at the position.  What the Packers decided to do or not do doesn't matter to me all that much.  

MVS didn't force him self anywhere IMO.  They saw 6 snaps a game early season when the core was healthy.  The very second that WR core got everyone back is the instance he lost his snaps (the Rams game).  After the Rams game his snaps went back up do to the loss of Allison.  MVS seeing the field was the direct result of a bad WR core getting injured.  

EQ has gotten the start in each of the last 2 weeks.  frankly, it was almost impossible to get less production than what MVS was giving us in the 3 previous weeks.  EQ had twice as many snaps this last week with the offense.  MVS  has been negated to an even split with Kumerow.  

I'm not getting excited about MVS for exactly the same reason I didn't get excited about Janis after he looked unstoppable in that playoff game against the Cardinals.  He's not consistent.  He's a big play here and there but not much more.  

MVS has gotten exactly the same number of snaps this year as Calvin Ridley yet there is a drastic difference between their production.  IMO, MVS isn't producing any better than most WRs would had they been put into his roll.   Jarrett Boykin looked like a serviceable starting WR for a portion of a season because of Aaron Rodgers.  I know people want to try to compare Adam's rookie season stats to that of MVS' but the situations are different.  Adams played on the #1 offense in the NFL with 2 all pro caliber WRs.  Tough to steal targets as a #3 in that situation.  MVS on the other hand was the #2 or #3 on a struggling offense that badly needed production from it's pass catchers.  Rodgers playing just OK and a lack of talent at the WR core has lead to a ridiculous amount of throwaways and 3rd down sacks (think we lead the NFL in both).  

It's not that I'm not excited about MVS, I'm not excited about needing him to be a starting caliber WR for this offense next season.  I'm jumping to replace him because we didn't have an offense capable of making the playoffs this year with him playing as a starter for the majority of the season.   We've never seen a low end Packer WR prospect develop into a starting caliber WR in year 2.  Just assuming something is going to happen that we've never seen before is dangerous IMO.  I'd much rather we hedge our bets and add some skill to a position group that has lacked it this year.  Green Bay has already shown that there is no such thing as too much WR talent.   We're a playoff team if you plug JuJu Smith Schuster into the offense and he's a guy who went one pick after our terrible selection of Josh Jones.  

 

[vegas492]

22 minutes ago, Victor1124 said:

I believe if King has another injury riddled season like he has had the last two years, the Packers would most likely prepare to move on from him when his rookie deal is over instead of planning on him being apart of the future. That is what I meant by short leash. 

I agree, it’s way too early to give up on Jackson. If they hypothetically bring Breeland back; they would have King, Breeland, Alexander, Jackson, and Brown. Going a corner early means they Packers would have to lose faith in either King staying healthy or Jackson improving. I don’t think they are ready to do either.

Thanks for the explanation.  King needs to stay healthy to get paid.  

I love the idea of bringing Breeland back.  If Brown is your 5'th corner, you are in good shape.  But..I'd still invest a later pick at corner

Breeland and King on the outside.  Jaire inside.  Jackson and Brown as depth plus a rookie.  

To me?  That has the makings of a good unit.  If GB can rush the Edge and still get some pressure with the Pettine scheme, I see good things in store for that defense.

[vegas492]

2 minutes ago, SSG said:

   We're a playoff team if you plug JuJu Smith Schuster into the offense and he's a guy who went one pick after our terrible selection of Josh Jones.  

 

Aw man, why you have to pick at that scab?  I had such a man-crush on Ju-Ju that year.  

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, SSG said:

MVS didn't force him self anywhere IMO.  They saw 6 snaps a game early season when the core was healthy.  The very second that WR core got everyone back is the instance he lost his snaps (the Rams game).  After the Rams game his snaps went back up do to the loss of Allison.  MVS seeing the field was the direct result of a bad WR core getting injured. 

So despite being productive, the coaching staff buried him on the bench.  Why?  Because they were insistent on playing their veterans (i.e. Randall Cobb).

1 hour ago, SSG said:

MVS has gotten exactly the same number of snaps this year as Calvin Ridley yet there is a drastic difference between their production.  IMO, MVS isn't producing any better than most WRs would had they been put into his roll.   Jarrett Boykin looked like a serviceable starting WR for a portion of a season because of Aaron Rodgers.  I know people want to try to compare Adam's rookie season stats to that of MVS' but the situations are different.  Adams played on the #1 offense in the NFL with 2 all pro caliber WRs.  Tough to steal targets as a #3 in that situation.  MVS on the other hand was the #2 or #3 on a struggling offense that badly needed production from it's pass catchers.  Rodgers playing just OK and a lack of talent at the WR core has lead to a ridiculous amount of throwaways and 3rd down sacks (think we lead the NFL in both).  

Calvin Ridley has gotten 82 targets this year.  MVS has gotten 55 targets.  Calvin Ridley and Austin Hooper are the second and third targets respectively for their team.  Randall Cobb and MVS are third and fourth respectively.  Aaron Rodgers doesn't throw the damn ball to MVS.  Matt Ryan has no issue throwing to Ridley.  Right now, our offense consists of either throwing the ball to Davante Adams 10+ times a game or Aaron Rodgers throwing it away.  Aaron Rodgers is too afraid to make a throw because he's afraid of throwing interceptions.  Since becoming a starting QB, Aaron Rodgers is about to have the 2nd worst completion percentage in his career after 2015.  He was on pace to smash the record for most throwaways in a season.  Plus, it doesn't help that Rodgers does a better job of spreading the ball around.  Matt Ryan has 7 receivers who have at least 20 targets, and Rodgers has 10.  You want to blame the WR, I get it.

[PACKRULE]

3 hours ago, SSG said:

I'd throw my remote through the TV if we go all Matt Millen on this draft and spend yet another early pick on a CB.  The idea that you can't have success on defense without a half dozen first round CBs is crazy.  

 

Edge, WR and TE would be my priorities with my first 3 picks in any order.  That could also change depending on our activity in Free Agency.  I don't think Clowney, Flowers, Laurence or Clark are leaving their respective teams which dampens the edge group.  Also not enamored with the group at WR with a really old Golden Tate being the best of the group.  One thing for sure though, there are multiple ways to skin a cat.  We need a heavy dosage of UFA help and a quality draft if we're going to end this 2 year playoff drought.  

I hope we go different then WR and TE with any of our first three pics. Yuck. Edge sure, S or DL way better value. We just spent 3 picks on WR's last year and 2 look good. Why spend early this year let them develop a bit. It's odd that in the same breath you chastise Millen you want to do the same at WR as you were saying about QB.

Any of Edge, PRDT and or S works for me.

[SSG]

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

So despite being productive, the coaching staff buried him on the bench.  Why?  Because they were insistent on playing their veterans (i.e. Randall Cobb).

Calvin Ridley has gotten 82 targets this year.  MVS has gotten 55 targets.  Calvin Ridley and Austin Hooper are the second and third targets respectively for their team.  Randall Cobb and MVS are third and fourth respectively.  Aaron Rodgers doesn't throw the damn ball to MVS.  Matt Ryan has no issue throwing to Ridley.  Right now, our offense consists of either throwing the ball to Davante Adams 10+ times a game or Aaron Rodgers throwing it away.  Aaron Rodgers is too afraid to make a throw because he's afraid of throwing interceptions.  Since becoming a starting QB, Aaron Rodgers is about to have the 2nd worst completion percentage in his career after 2015.  He was on pace to smash the record for most throwaways in a season.  Plus, it doesn't help that Rodgers does a better job of spreading the ball around.  Matt Ryan has 7 receivers who have at least 20 targets, and Rodgers has 10.  You want to blame the WR, I get it.

MVS has tied for 4th among WRs this last week in offensive snaps with Jake Kumerow.  He was doubled up in snaps by EQ.  That's not veterans that passed him that's 2 rookies.  

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't agree that we've got a terrible QB that should be able to make any warm body who steps on the field with him into a star.  I don't believe that overnight Aaron Rodgers turned into a  QB that can't get this offense to the playoffs when given quality play makers around him.  I think one of the NFL's worst receiving cores has something to do with our issues on offense. Its easily the worst he's ever had to deal with which would explain why he's struggling.  I'm sure there is but I can not name another QB in the league who 's had to turn a low end prospect like MVS into a starter.  This is a rookie who was drafted based on only his athletic ability.  A very limited route runner who had little to no success in college (75 catches in 4 years).

[skibrett15]

3 hours ago, CWood21 said:

As the season wore on, MVS forced his way into the lineup because of injury and his play.

he never forced his way into the lineup because of play.

49 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

So despite being productive, the coaching staff buried him on the bench.  Why?  Because they were insistent on playing their veterans (i.e. Randall Cobb).

yes but why?  Bad coaching? or maybe he isn't that productive or reliable of a WR.  And maybe there's a really bad fit between his strengths (getting open for big plays) and Rodgers' strengths (getting anyone open for big plays).

What Rodgers needs is consistency and ability to get open for medium and short plays.  Then he develops chemistry and starts throwing you open on the sidelines.  The big plays are always there when Rodgers is your QB, even for a minus athlete like Allison or a nobody like Tonyan.

MVS got passed by ESB because of his mediocre play on the field.  He peaked in the NE game, and never really did anything after that which earned him more looks or more PT.  It was just like you predicted when we were all clamoring for the rookies to get looks "are you willing to live with the mistakes and bad plays".  Well, WE were, but Rodgers wasn't, and isn't.

54 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Aaron Rodgers doesn't throw the damn ball to MVS.  Matt Ryan has no issue throwing to Ridley.  Right now, our offense consists of either throwing the ball to Davante Adams 10+ times a game or Aaron Rodgers throwing it away.

Rodgers would have no issue throwing to Ridley because Ridley is a polished, talented and accomplished WR entering the league.   MVS is a project.  Very much more likely to be Jeff Janis from here on out than Davante Adams.  I just don't think it's that hard to find a WR like Ridley or Gallup who practices and plays hard and will earn Rodgers' trust.

The packers have 1 player who could start on another successful offense.  They need 2... at least 2 and ideally more!  You can hope and pray that the rookies all pan out, but most likely they top out as 3rd or 4th options.  From what I've seen, ESB is the most likely to succeed.

[skibrett15]

19 hours ago, coachbuns said:

Sorry, he's strictly a backup.  For a 2nd round pick who has been in the system for a while now, he just hasn't developed into a starter.  If you have Spriggs and Bell as starters on the right side of your line,  Rodgers will be running for his life.

which backup lineman on other teams would you say he's worse than?  Is he a high tier backup, or a mid tier, or low tier?

[AlexGreen#20]

Remember that time MVS got behind Quarters coverage against the Bears and Rodgers over threw him by 3 steps? Good times. Glad we're throwing the kid under the bus.

[skibrett15]

nothing wrong with MVS or ESB.  Don't see them as more than 3rd or 4th options, but would love to be pleasantly surprised.  Hope for the best, prepare...