This team needs a 2nd round WR/TE/RB or equivalent FA

[{Family Ghost}]

33 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

nothing wrong with MVS or ESB.  Don't see them as more than 3rd or 4th options, but would love to be pleasantly surprised.  Hope for the best, prepare...

I swear that ESB is open .. like all the time.  He seems to have no issue at all creating separation.  As for MVS .. dude is fast, but sometimes he just trips over his own feet.  I think both are going to be pretty good wideouts in this league.

[coachbuns]

3 hours ago, skibrett15 said:

which backup lineman on other teams would you say he's worse than?  Is he a high tier backup, or a mid tier, or low tier?

doesn't matter what tier ... a backup lineman is a backup lineman.  

[coachbuns]

3 hours ago, skibrett15 said:

which backup lineman on other teams would you say he's worse than?  Is he a high tier backup, or a mid tier, or low tier?

doesn't matter what tier ... a backup lineman is a backup lineman.  

Edited December 20, 2018 by coachbuns
double post

[SSG]

4 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Remember that time MVS got behind Quarters coverage against the Bears and Rodgers over threw him by 3 steps? Good times. Glad we're throwing the kid under the bus.

Sure do.  It's one of few plays over the last 5 weeks where MVS beat his man.  It's one of the few routes he can run with any sort of consistency.

How many offenses in the league have a MVS caliber WR starting?  A limited route runner who had little to no success in college?  

No one is throwing anyone under the bus, I'm holding him accountable for playing terrible over the last 5 games.  Rodgers surely missed him a couple times but it's laughable that people think Rodgers is the reason MVS has played terrible over the last 5 weeks.  But again, Rodgers signed a big contract and a lot of people absolutely hate him for that.

Edited December 20, 2018 by SSG

[SSG]

7 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Aw man, why you have to pick at that scab?  I had such a man-crush on Ju-Ju that year.  

Me too and he looks like he's going to be an all pro sooner rather than later.  Crazy that he just turned 22.

[SSG]

5 hours ago, PACKRULE said:

I hope we go different then WR and TE with any of our first three pics. Yuck. Edge sure, S or DL way better value. We just spent 3 picks on WR's last year and 2 look good. Why spend early this year let them develop a bit. It's odd that in the same breath you chastise Millen you want to do the same at WR as you were saying about QB.

Any of Edge, PRDT and or S works for me.

 

We've spent 6 draft picks on low end WR prospects over the last 3 drafts (3 of those picks didn't make the team at some point).  Finally making a serious investment into the WR position (or TE position) isn't the same thing that Millen did when he spent his #1 pick on a WR in 3 straight years.  What Millen did is a lot closer to what we've done over the last 4 years with the drafting of DBs.  We've spent our top 2 picks on DBs in 3 of the last 4 drafts.  And you want to use yet another high pick on a DB?   

By drafting a WR we aren't stopping the rookies from developing.  We're adding insurance just in case they don't.  We've had one low end WR prospect in the last 20+ years develop into a starting despite drafting drafting a ton of them.  I'm not one to assume something is going to happen that I've bitterly never seen happen.  There is no such thing as too many WRs.  After this year we're going to have to decide what to do with Allison.  If MVS and ESB don't develop into the starters that some assume they are going to be we'd almost be forced into a blank check for Allison. 

[AlexGreen#20]

41 minutes ago, SSG said:

Sure do.  It's one of few plays over the last 5 weeks where MVS beat his man.  It's one of the few routes he can run with any sort of consistency.

How many offenses in the league have a MVS caliber WR starting?  A limited route runner who had little to no success in college?  

No one is throwing anyone under the bus, I'm holding him accountable for playing terrible over the last 5 games.  Rodgers surely missed him a couple times but it's laughable that people think Rodgers is the reason MVS has played terrible over the last 5 weeks.  But again, Rodgers signed a big contract and a lot of people absolutely hate him for that.

Off the top of my head, Desean Jackson and Torrey Smith have been extremely successful with the skillset you're describing. When you can win vertically, you don't need to catch 12 balls a game. If MVS catches 4 balls for 80 yards, that's not a bad game. 

How many examples of an open MVS do you want? There are plenty. 

MVS has one bad really route. His curl route is complete crap. He can not figure out how to pivot rather than anchor. It's actually slightly mystifying that he can't figure that one out. The rest of it is meh to good, more heavy on the meh side. But again, if MVS had the release set and the route skills of Davante Adams, he would be a rich man's Julio Jones. 

[SSG]

34 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Off the top of my head, Desean Jackson and Torrey Smith have been extremely successful with the skillset you're describing. When you can win vertically, you don't need to catch 12 balls a game. If MVS catches 4 balls for 80 yards, that's not a bad game. 

How many examples of an open MVS do you want? There are plenty. 

MVS has one bad really route. His curl route is complete crap. He can not figure out how to pivot rather than anchor. It's actually slightly mystifying that he can't figure that one out. The rest of it is meh to good, more heavy on the meh side. But again, if MVS had the release set and the route skills of Davante Adams, he would be a rich man's Julio Jones. 

But he doesn't have Adams skill set, not even close.  That's why Adams was a record setting WR in college and MVS couldn't even be considered mediocre given the terrible production he had over his 4 year career.  

And Trevor Davis, Jeff Janis and Charles Johnson weren't.  All could win vertically.    There are substantially more Trevor Davis, Jeff Janis and Charles Johnson's out there than Desean Jackson and Torrey Smith's.  Torrey Smith and Desean Jackson were substantially more polished WRs coming out of college IMO.

I'm sure you can find dozens of still shots or clips of MVS running free.  I  remember having EXACTLY this same conversation about Jeff Janis and how he was "always" open and that it was Aaron Rodgers fault that he wasn't a star.  Now despite being one of the best athletes in the NFL at his position he's out of the league at the age of 27.  Ignoring progressions and taking the context out of the play doesn't mean he's open.  

I  know I sound like a MVS hater.  I'm not.  I want him to have success as athletes like him don't come along that often.  He's been better than I thought he would but there is no way I'm going into next year assuming something that I've never seen before from a GBP.  I think this offense will have the same issues next year if we expect MVS to develop into a starting caliber WR next season.  

Edited December 20, 2018 by SSG

[AlexGreen#20]

2 minutes ago, SSG said:

But he doesn't have Adams skill set, not even close.  That's why Adams was a record setting WR in college and MVS couldn't even be considered mediocre given the terrible production he had over his 4 year career.  

And Trevor Davis, Jeff Janis and Charles Johnson weren't.  All could win vertically.    There are substantially more Trevor Davis, Jeff Janis and Charles Johnson's out there than Desean Jackson and Torrey Smith's.  Torrey Smith and Desean Jackson were substantially more polished WRs coming out of college IMO.

I'm sure you can find dozens of still shots or clips of MVS running free.  I  remember having EXACTLY this same conversation about Jeff Janis and how he was "always" open and that it was Aaron Rodgers fault that he wasn't a star.  Now despite being one of the best athletes in the NFL at his position he's out of the league at the age of 27.  Ignoring progressions and taking the context out of the play doesn't mean he's open.  

I  know I sound like a MVS hater.  I'm not.  I want him to have success as athletes like him don't come along that often.  He's been better than I thought he would but there is no way I'm going into next year assuming something that I've never seen before from a GBP.  I think this offense will have the same issues next year if we expect MVS to develop into a starting caliber WR next season.  

Trevor Davis has never shown an ability to win vertically. 

Janis literally couldn't do anything else.

Charles Johnson never excelled vertically.

How the hell do you know what MVS looked like in college? As far as I can tell there is almost no footage of him in college, and if you wanted to see it, you would have to piece together pieces from other players. The USF scheme was so damn wretched for converting WRs to the pros that projecting it was basically impossible. 

[vegas492]

15 hours ago, {Family Ghost} said:

I swear that ESB is open .. like all the time.  He seems to have no issue at all creating separation.  As for MVS .. dude is fast, but sometimes he just trips over his own feet.  I think both are going to be pretty good wideouts in this league.

ESB is smooth.  Just a smooth athlete.  I think he has the makings of a good one.

MVS...while I worry a little about him....it does look to me like he's thinking too much out there and not really letting his ability shine through.  Which is typical for a younger player.  I can be patient with him, while still wanting a better veteran on the team for next year.  

Like Cwood has said...a ton....neither he, nor I, are against taking a WR in the draft.  Let's just do it where the value appears to be best.  And that isn't in round one.  Perhaps round 2, but with this particular class, there should be a lot of defensive guys sitting there with higher grades than WR's.  So...then you go into free agency.  The key there is to find value.  While I would like a Tate kind of player, that kind of player will come with a high price tag.  And that's what I don't want.

It is okay to feel good about ESB and MVS while still wanting a little more on the roster...I'd argue that would be more for insurance.  The rest of the arguing over MVS?  Semantics.  Yes he got touches early because of lack of options.  Yes he has produced.  Yes he has been passed by ESB and maybe Kumerow has even caught up to him.  I'll go with rookie wall.  This is all okay and not a reason to be overly down on MVS...it should lead to a little more excitement over ESB and even Kumerow.

[vegas492]

11 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Off the top of my head, Desean Jackson and Torrey Smith have been extremely successful with the skillset you're describing. When you can win vertically, you don't need to catch 12 balls a game. If MVS catches 4 balls for 80 yards, that's not a bad game. 

How many examples of an open MVS do you want? There are plenty. 

MVS has one bad really route. His curl route is complete crap. He can not figure out how to pivot rather than anchor. It's actually slightly mystifying that he can't figure that one out. The rest of it is meh to good, more heavy on the meh side. But again, if MVS had the release set and the route skills of Davante Adams, he would be a rich man's Julio Jones. 

Jon Brown (now with Baltimore) comes to mind when thinking of Desean and Torrey type WR's.  Goodwin (49ers) is that way too, only not as successful.

[Pugger]

12 hours ago, SSG said:

Sure do.  It's one of few plays over the last 5 weeks where MVS beat his man.  It's one of the few routes he can run with any sort of consistency.

How many offenses in the league have a MVS caliber WR starting?  A limited route runner who had little to no success in college?  

No one is throwing anyone under the bus, I'm holding him accountable for playing terrible over the last 5 games.  Rodgers surely missed him a couple times but it's laughable that people think Rodgers is the reason MVS has played terrible over the last 5 weeks.  But again, Rodgers signed a big contract and a lot of people absolutely hate him for that.

Yup, AR signed that big contract and isn't playing like Godgers this year so people are sick of him and he's to blame for most of what went wrong this season.

[PACKRULE]

14 hours ago, SSG said:

 

We've spent 6 draft picks on low end WR prospects over the last 3 drafts (3 of those picks didn't make the team at some point).  Finally making a serious investment into the WR position (or TE position) isn't the same thing that Millen did when he spent his #1 pick on a WR in 3 straight years.  What Millen did is a lot closer to what we've done over the last 4 years with the drafting of DBs.  We've spent our top 2 picks on DBs in 3 of the last 4 drafts.  And you want to use yet another high pick on a DB?   

By drafting a WR we aren't stopping the rookies from developing.  We're adding insurance just in case they don't.  We've had one low end WR prospect in the last 20+ years develop into a starting despite drafting drafting a ton of them.  I'm not one to assume something is going to happen that I've bitterly never seen happen.  There is no such thing as too many WRs.  After this year we're going to have to decide what to do with Allison.  If MVS and ESB don't develop into the starters that some assume they are going to be we'd almost be forced into a blank check for Allison. 

Are we allowed to draft Edge or a pass rushing tackle? Maybe a couple of them. Heck we're ok at WR we could even dabble in the FA market for a mid tier guy. My point was that yuck on drafting a WR early it's not a need. The kids are developing nicely and yes we still have Allison and why would we have to write him a blank check if the kids don't pan out? Just silly spend the early draft capital on the positions with the best possible return on the investment.

I can't imagine what your posts would be like if we have no pass rush next year and have 7 WR's again. The defensive front 7 needs an 2 good pieces added and if we're letting CM3 walk which we likely will we could be pretty short.

Myself I'd take a RB before a take a WR in this draft.

[wgbeethree]

I honestly don't care what positions we draft with the first and second round picks. I'd just like to hit on two of them. We haven't done that in about a decade. Depending on your opinion on Raji and Collins you may have to go all the way back to Hawk and Jennings to find a pair that were quality players through their second contracts.

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by wgbeethree

[Haha21]

I would love for us to draft Marquise Brown, out of Oklahoma, to replace Cobb. He's a home run threat every time he touches the ball.