Vance Joseph Fired as Broncos HC

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

Unfortunately, we’ve known since the beginning there is no “spectacular” out there this year.  I know there is a lot of talk about LaFleur, but other than his history with Shanahan/Kubiak, I don’t see much there that is any more exciting than the other “meh” options.  Munhak does nothing for me.  With Fangio, at least it would be interesting to see what he could get out of this D.  Flores sounds like an interesting story - but I’m so down on Bellichek assets due to such a poor track record. 

But, man, we need some new thinking on the offensive side so bad.  And I love Kubs, but I just don’t see him bringing the creativity we need to compete in this era. 

I agree FWIW that Lafleur doesn't come with the same likelihood of a guy who can really turn things around on O.  His work in TEN was pretty unspectacular, albeit with mitigating circumstances (losing your T's and Mariota can lead to gameplans that contract the O - my concern is that knowing that, they didn't feature Henry until late in-season).   But he's also one of the few options that can really bring a fresh approach.  I must say I'm intrigued to see what Taylor can bring, he's certainly learned under the best.   The issue of course is that it's hard to know how much McVay controls that O planning-wise, and how much Taylor's retained skill-wise if he goes out on his own.

But yeah, otherwise, that's a very uninspiring list.   Fangio gets a lot of love, but it's worth pointing out that the FF CHI fanbase finds he's actually underutilizing the powerhouse D he's been given this year, and they point to not attacking NE and NYG's O as big reasons for those L's.     Either way, though, it seems more like going back to the well with Kubiak being in the mix is plan A, rather than trying to find someone who can overhaul the O.   If you are in a full rebuild, overhauling the O is much more feasible.  That's where Elway's stance on whether this is a full-on rebuild is key (and forget the public posturing, we'll never know what's happening behind closed doors, but as long as he's admitting it there, it doesn't matter what he says publicly).

I think we have to realize that we're not a top destination when HC candidates look at us.   Elway has huge levels of control, we don't have a QB, and while we're making progress, we're still at least 1-2 years away from real contention - part of which is because it's hard to see a 2019 fix at QB, and we need at least 1-2 more draft successes to rebuild the roster depth, and more if we don't find a franchise QB.   It's not exactly a job opportunity that screams "longevity", to new HC hires.   We'll still get someone decent, but to get the elite, most sought-after guys?  Unlikely right now.    Our window to look like a prime destination was 2017, and sadly Elway whiffed hard on VJ.  

The last people on a team who want to say the word "rebuild" are the players.  The fact they are saying it now speaks volumes.   It's a little concerning Elway wouldn't acknowledge that's where we're at - because it opens the door for desperate win-now moves.   Then again, it's hard for him to sell that right now, so I hope he understands what we are really facing, but just keeping up a public façade - that's an entirely reasonable approach to take (even if it appears out of touch in public takes).    But if Elway also realizes this is a rebuild, then sadly enough, it also means this latest HC hire is probably more like a bridge - just like Fox was a bridge for us in 2011 (just 1 year too long, 2014 it really cost us).    

When we have a better roster, and hopefully a real QB, we'll generate more interest.   It's fair to say the HC pool isn't nearly as deep this year as 2017 for candidates who can transform / significantly upgrade an O.   As crazy as it is to say, CLE, GB & even TAM are generating more interest because they're in a better position to contend sooner, and have a very clear 2019 QB situation, if not longer.  

[AnAngryAmerican]

1 hour ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

Unfortunately, we’ve known since the buginning there is no “spectacular”out there this year.  I know there is a lot of talk about LaFleur, but other than his history with Shanahan/Kubiak, I don’t see much there that is any more exciting than the other “meh” options.  Munhak does nothing for me.  With Fangio, at least it would be interesting to see what he could get out of this D.  Flores sounds like an interesting story - but I’m so down on Bellichek asst,s due to such a poor track record. 

What’s appealing to me about LaFleur is that he has experience with and exposure to several different ways of doing things, including the Shanahans but also with Sean McVay. He’s also a former player, albeit in the AFL and I believe CFL, but being able to understand locker room dynamics is big. He’s also not too old to be  set in his ways nor too young to be inexperienced and naive. 

I think he’s at least worthy of an interview. I mean if we’re going to bring in Zac Taylor what harm could there be in seeing what LaFleur has to say? I’m guessing that Kubiak, who he has worked for, must have told Elway something that took him off the list. 

[jsthomp2007]

1 hour ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

Unfortunately, we’ve known since the buginning there is no “spectacular”out there this year.  I know there is a lot of talk about LaFleur, but other than his history with Shanahan/Kubiak, I don’t see much there that is any more exciting than the other “meh” options.  Munhak does nothing for me.  With Fangio, at least it would be interesting to see what he could get out of this D.  Flores sounds like an interesting story - but I’m so down on Bellichek asst,s due to such a poor track record. 

But, man, we need some new thinking on the offensive side so bad.  And I love Kubs, but I just don’t see him bringing the creativity we need to compete in this era. 

At least Munchak hasn't coached under Bellychick.

[AnAngryAmerican]

30 minutes ago, jolly red giant said:

Saw something on Broncos TV today saying that they were only interviewing 4/5 candidates - still have a sneeky feeling Elway will go to Ellis and say 'they are all sh*te and we need Mike Shanahan. The only other obvious one for me is Pagano.

As for Kubiak - I have consistently suggested that he is under-rated. I think he is innovative - he succeeded in winning a SB with Manning who couldn't through the ball - in Baltimore Kubiak made Flacco look outstanding - and in Houston made Schaub look like a perennial pro-bowler. I will take him any day over what we have had for the past two years.

I think bringing Mike back, while not impossible, is very, very unlikely. And I’m not down on bringing Kubiak in to run the offense, especially if we’re going to stick with Case. Plus, like I’ve been saying, safe, familiar and conservative is the route we’re forced to go with now because the franchise cannot afford to make another big mistake. 

Other than the candidates with whom have scheduled/plan to schedule interviews, the only other name I’ve heard the local media mention as a real option is McCarthy. Problem there is he is going to likely get an opportunity with one of Cleveland, Arizona and New York with their young QBs, he probably won’t want to come here where the QB is Case, a backup-quality veteran who has already hit his ceiling. 

[DiehardBronxFan]

Just a random thought - what would y’all think about Urban Meyer?

[Broncofan]

Re: Munchak, since he's been a coach in PIT for the last 5 years, a HUGE interview Q that he's got to ace - what he'd have done differently than the PIT FO did with both the Le'veon Bell and Antonio Brown situations.  

Whether or not you side with either Bell and AB (and in AB's case the last week, he can't miss practice on his own for Wed-Sat and expect to play on Sun), there's a HUGE problem with locker room culture.   Union reps slamming Bell for exercising his rights to hold out - that should never happen under any circumstance (one thing to let it all air behind closed doors, but the NFLPA reps can't be calling Bell for exercising his right to hold out when tagged in public - that's Union 101).   Now teammates are coming out telling other stories of AB's behaviour to the press (and while it's meant to paint AB as a diva - honestly, most alpha-type WR's are prima donnas, there are exceptions to the rule, but the prior stories just sound like typical stuff you see with elite WR's - so flaky lol).   

Thing is, many teams handle drama like this behind the scenes all the time - and they handle it internally.   Something in PIT's culture is creating the atmosphere where the best players are unhappy, and the teammates are then publicly calling them out, and then the team vs. player battle is magnified 100x than if it was handled privately behind closed doors.   And the coaching staff is clearly creating a culture where that's acceptable.   You can't necessarily prevent the 1st problem of unhappy players, but the toxic culture in the locker room leading to the public airing of dirty laundry, that's a major red flag.  The fact that it's happening 2x in less than 6 months is a huge flag on the coaching staff's ability here.    I would want no one from that coaching staff if they couldn't give a strong answer on how that mess happened, and what they learned from it.   If Munchak was to simply answer with negative replies on AB & Bell, that would be a huge no-go for me.   If he gave a really thoughtful answer on how a FO and coaching staff can prevent things from getting that bad, I'd give up a plus.   That Q, though, has to get asked.  I'd love to hear that reply.   

I'd also love to hear what Munchak learned from his TEN HC stay from 2011-13 - because to say that it was pretty uninspiring would be entirely fair.  HC's don't always get it right the first time, so it's not a killer blow, but I'd love to hear what he learned from that and what he'd do differently - and concrete things, not just apple-pie / motherhood statements like "be better in the details / learn to delegate more".

Munchak is getting several interviews, so DEN won't be alone in asking the above Q's.  That would be a fantastic interview given the past year with Bell, and what's going down with AB, to get Munchak's take on it, and learn more about the style he'd employ, and what he's learned from his TEN days.   Killing it on those Q's would show this isn't just an old-boys club retread selection.  I imagine it's going to be front and center on most team's Q list during interviews.

[Broncofan]

6 minutes ago, DiehardBronxFan said:

Just a random thought - what would y’all think about Urban Meyer?

If Elway was serious about high-character on the team, there's no way he could sell that, given the PR flak Meyer's taken this year for turning a blind eye to what went down with his coach.   Besides that, though, I think there are several reasons why it's not likely with any NFL team, not just DEN.

First, IMO Meyer isn't done, despite what he's said - but I think he's looking for the college Holy Grail (a top 5 power with another job opening) in the future, when the PR heat from OSU to die down.  His ability to recruit would be wasted in the NFL.   Secondly, NFL athletes often stop listening to guys used to having complete control in college, since they don't have the same power differential over pro athletes.    Finally, and most importantly, the only reason to get a college HC is if he has the ability to bring new ideas to transform an O/D (in our case, O) - Meyer's not really that kind of HC.

[jsthomp2007]

No character issues with Munchak. He was tough as nails as an OL...if you pair him with Kubiak and maybe bring in Bowles to DC...and if you wanted run first dominant defense....wouldn't be a be a bad idea combo of coaches. But it's a brand of football people hate, but it works.

 

And, I'd hope Munchak could help continue to develop Bolles and make him more disciplined. And, I'd hope our capital would go towards bolstering the OL and DL. I mean, really what we need to do is develop a team that will keep the ball out of Mahomes' hands till we get a QB who can go toe to toe with him. Until then keep the ball away from him and beat the crap out of him when he has the ball.

[broncofan48]

7 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said:

No character issues with Munchak. He was tough as nails as an OL...if you pair him with Kubiak and maybe bring in Bowles to DC...and if you wanted run first dominant defense....wouldn't be a be a bad idea combo of coaches. But it's a brand of football people hate, but it works.

 

And, I'd hope Munchak could help continue to develop Bolles and make him more disciplined. And, I'd hope our capital would go towards bolstering the OL and DL. I mean, really what we need to do is develop a team that will keep the ball out of Mahomes' hands till we get a QB who can go toe to toe with him. Until then keep the ball away from him and beat the crap out of him when he has the ball.

That’s a really good point

[jsthomp2007]

We need coaches who can develop young players....no CEO types. We need a coach who knows when challenge, manage the clock, and practice discipline....I think that is Munchak, Kubes, Bowles.

 

Oh..and they need to be able to make in game adjustments....i would defer to Kubiak for those adjustments...not many coaches better than him at it.

[Scoundrel]

36 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said:

We need coaches who can develop young players....no CEO types. We need a coach who knows when challenge, manage the clock, and practice discipline....I think that is Munchak, Kubes, Bowles.

 

Oh..and they need to be able to make in game adjustments....i would defer to Kubiak for those adjustments...not many coaches better than him at it.

I choose you for GM. Can I be the lead scout though? 

[BullsandBroncos]

Wouldn't mind Brian Flores, Vic Fangio, John Harbaugh, or Zac Taylor

[Broncofan]

I keep saying it, but CIN keeps giving me the source material, so I'll say it again - as bleak as things are with us, it could be worse.  We could be CIN fans.   OMG that's bad.  Hue & VJ now in competition for HC there.   The sentiment that VJ was unprepared to be HC and might be better later could definitely hold true - but it's not like that's happening next year.   CIN only needs to interview Jeff Fisher to make things less inspiring.

 

[elwayfan07]

For me, while not my first choice, Munchack is interesting. I think,if nothing else he would give Denver an Identity, especially on offense. The last few years the team has really lacked one. Hencan help develop the OL aand establish an edge that has been missing for a while. He seems like a John Fox hire. He is not going to win a SB for you but I feel he will steady the ship. Which may be what the franchise needs

Vic Fangio is also interesting. However, I think a guy like Kitchens in Cleveland is also an interesting option. He has done wonders with Baker he deserves a closer look

[Scoundrel]

While I agree Kitchens has helped Baker I am sick of seeing this narrative of it being all Kitchens. Baker was held back by the previous coaches. Baker was ready to excel right away. Let’s give Baker some of that credit too. That’s all I ask. You’ll see going forward if Kicthens leaves. Baker is the real deal.