DEN hires CHI DC Vic Fangio as HC

[thebestever6]

Elway was talking about building a team from the  ground up. That sounds like rebuilding to me.

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

Elway was talking about building a team from the  ground up. That sounds like rebuilding to me.

I have to assume he wants to follow the Bears model. A young, up and coming team that made it to the WC and for the state of their team, and players ages, that was a win. Then they progressively get more serious about Super Bowl asperations in the next 1-2 seasons. Sorta like Denver around the Tebow era / early Peyton. You can rebuild and win.

[thebestever6]

I'll tell you what elway has said he wants continuity on offense.  So Kubiak being the OC I thinks gonna be for a couple of years. And Gary will be a huge part helping select the next QB. He'll have more influence than your average OC. 

This gives me hope whatever young qb we get won't be an Elway toolsy qb special. 

[thebestever6]

5 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I have to assume he wants to follow the Bears model. A young, up and coming team that made it to the WC and for the state of their team, and players ages, that was a win. Then they progressively get more serious about Super Bowl asperations in the next 1-2 seasons. Sorta like Denver around the Tebow era / early Peyton. You can rebuild and win.

Yeah but I don't want short term stupid free agent signings to win now. Draft based off of a player away mentality we used besides last year. 

[AKRNA]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

If DEN spends most of the gained cap space in a win-now flurry of signings, with this O in its current shape, and the FA's available, holy h***, that will be absolutely brutal for our franchise.   Getting out of cap h*** was part of the reason our future was looking brighter.

 

Thats the key aspect. I wouldn't be surprised to see us lock up a quality CB for a 4-5 year contract. Actually, a difference maker on either side of the ball for 4-5 years. We've got enough space to re-sign our quality FA's and still squeak in one other quality ballplayer.. 

As long as the terms are 4 years + It'd be a good move. Just hold off on the 1-2 year gigs until you're looking for roster fillers at league minimums.

[Broncofan]

21 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

Thats the key aspect. I wouldn't be surprised to see us lock up a quality CB for a 4-5 year contract. Actually, a difference maker on either side of the ball for 4-5 years. We've got enough space to re-sign our quality FA's and still squeak in one other quality ballplayer.. 

As long as the terms are 4 years + It'd be a good move. Just hold off on the 1-2 year gigs until you're looking for roster fillers at league minimums.

The thing is that true difference makers with longevity are few and far between in FA.   Usually the top end guys aren’t worth it as they are just about to hit decline phase.   They rarely hold value beyond year 2    Leary is actually a good example of that.  Your premise is sound.   But the actual number of guys who fit (difference maker with longevity) is small.   For example CB probably the only guy who fits is Darby (Callahan intriguing but mostly slot only doesn’t help us).  But he’s going to be heavily in demand because of his age.  

Contenders can justify big cash outlays in FA being 1-2 guys away.  We shouldn’t skip FA but instead mine for young value flyers.  Definitely only target guys 25/26.   Because we want them at peak still when we are in a better window to contend.   Repeat the win now FA moves like 2017 it’s just wasted $.   Guess we will see. 

 

[AKRNA]

52 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The thing is that true difference makers with longevity are few and far between in FA.   Usually the top end guys aren’t worth it as they are just about to hit decline phase.   They rarely hold value beyond year 2    Leary is actually a good example of that.  Your premise is sound.   But the actual number of guys who fit (difference maker with longevity) is small.   For example CB probably the only guy who fits is Darby (Callahan intriguing but mostly slot only doesn’t help us).  But he’s going to be heavily in demand because of his age.  

Contenders can justify big cash outlays in FA being 1-2 guys away.  We shouldn’t skip FA but instead mine for young value flyers.  Definitely only target guys 25/26.   Because we want them at peak still when we are in a better window to contend.   Repeat the win now FA moves like 2017 it’s just wasted $.   Guess we will see. 

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of a Talib type signing. Get him now and he'll fit right in with our kids for 4 years.

[Scoundrel]

Chances a player like Roby gets resigned due to the fact that maybe Fangio can get something out of him?

[AKRNA]

15 minutes ago, Counselor said:

Chances a player like Roby gets resigned due to the fact that maybe Fangio can get something out of him?

Could be.

[AnAngryAmerican]

1 hour ago, Counselor said:

Chances a player like Roby gets resigned due to the fact that maybe Fangio can get something out of him?

He probably wouldn’t cost a lot. His absurd inconsistency just destroyed his market value. His attitude also sucks too. It’s unfortunate, because he was a key cog in the super bowl team. Oh well.

[germ-x]

15 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

It's hilarious when people think the reason for McVay's success is purely down to the fact he's an excellent play caller and play designer. Do people honestly think he's the first NFL person to ever come up with the concepts he uses? Nobody ever seems to talk about him as a leader. What's to say that his ability as a leader isn't equally as responsible for the Rams success as his playcalling ability?

If you have a QB, I get the appeal of having an Offensive guy as Head Coach. Your QB keeps scheme continuity and nobody can come and pinch them like they would if you have an OC with HC aspirations. As every person on this forum knows, we don't have a QB so why the doom and gloom? Because we didn't get a young hotshot HC? There is only one Sean McVay. Just like there is only one Bill Belichick. One Andy Reid.

I actually think the main quality in a HC in today's NFL is how they can communicate with modern NFL players. If you include the College game, we're seeing a decline in the Nick Saban, Bill Belichick approach because simply put, players have more power than they used to. Their voices are heard more and unless you've got an established culture like Alabama and New England have, the "my way or the highway" approach is rarely successful.

McVay and Lincoln Riley are young, intelligent Offensive minds but so is Adam Gase. However, the two former names are positive, energetic Coaches that try and relate to their players vs Gase's approach as an authoritarian. I am not saying the latter can't work, but I believe from a percentages standpoint it is much better to have a go at hiring the former.

I've heard a bit of both re: Fangio's leadership abilities, but the fact is none of us have any clue how he will be as a leader. People scoffed at Doug Pederson. They scoffed at Frank Reich, Anthony Lynn, etc. 

As a Head Coach, X and O's only matter so much. It's more about leadership, culture, decision making. We don't know how Fangio (or any other candidate) would fare with this, so let's give the guy a chance rather than booing him as soon as the preseason starts.

I actually disagree with this.

There is nothing that suggests that Sean McVay is some extradorinary leader.  He has a great scheme with great talent offensively and he was hired to coach one side of the ball, not an entire team, that’s why Wade Phillips was brought in.  McVay half the time isn’t even paying attention to what is going on defensively and is sitting with Goff figuring out what they’re going to do offensively.

Personally, I think Xs and Os mean more now than they ever have.  The “leader of men” is stuff of the past.  The game has evolved way past getting guys to run through walls for you and is far more about scheming guys into positions to be successful on both sides of the ball.

 

[broncofan48]

1 minute ago, germ-x said:

I actually disagree with this.

There is nothing that suggests that Sean McVay is some extradorinary leader.  He has a great scheme with great talent offensively and he was hired to coach one side of the ball, not an entire team, that’s why Wade Phillips was brought in.  McVay half the time isn’t even paying attention to what is going on defensively and is sitting with Goff figuring out what they’re going to do offensively.

Personally, I think Xs and Os mean more now than they ever have.  The “leader of men” is stuff of the past.  The game has evolved way past getting guys to run through walls for you and is far more about scheming guys into positions to be successful on both sides of the ball.

 

Just curious then by that line of thinking how optimistic are you about the Kubiak/Fangio pairing

[germ-x]

6 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

Just curious then by that line of thinking how optimistic are you about the Kubiak/Fangio pairing

I don’t really have that big an issue with the Fangio part.  Kubiak gives me pause as an OC and QB developer.  We’ll see.

[Broncofan]

17 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

It's hilarious when people think the reason for McVay's success is purely down to the fact he's an excellent play caller and play designer. Do people honestly think he's the first NFL person to ever come up with the concepts he uses? Nobody ever seems to talk about him as a leader. What's to say that his ability as a leader isn't equally as responsible for the Rams success as his playcalling ability?

If you have a QB, I get the appeal of having an Offensive guy as Head Coach. Your QB keeps scheme continuity and nobody can come and pinch them like they would if you have an OC with HC aspirations. As every person on this forum knows, we don't have a QB so why the doom and gloom? Because we didn't get a young hotshot HC? There is only one Sean McVay. Just like there is only one Bill Belichick. One Andy Reid.

I actually think the main quality in a HC in today's NFL is how they can communicate with modern NFL players. If you include the College game, we're seeing a decline in the Nick Saban, Bill Belichick approach because simply put, players have more power than they used to. Their voices are heard more and unless you've got an established culture like Alabama and New England have, the "my way or the highway" approach is rarely successful.

McVay and Lincoln Riley are young, intelligent Offensive minds but so is Adam Gase. However, the two former names are positive, energetic Coaches that try and relate to their players vs Gase's approach as an authoritarian. I am not saying the latter can't work, but I believe from a percentages standpoint it is much better to have a go at hiring the former.

I've heard a bit of both re: Fangio's leadership abilities, but the fact is none of us have any clue how he will be as a leader. People scoffed at Doug Pederson. They scoffed at Frank Reich, Anthony Lynn, etc. 

As a Head Coach, X and O's only matter so much. It's more about leadership, culture, decision making. We don't know how Fangio (or any other candidate) would fare with this, so let's give the guy a chance rather than booing him as soon as the preseason starts.

 

34 minutes ago, germ-x said:

I actually disagree with this.

There is nothing that suggests that Sean McVay is some extradorinary leader.  He has a great scheme with great talent offensively and he was hired to coach one side of the ball, not an entire team, that’s why Wade Phillips was brought in.  McVay half the time isn’t even paying attention to what is going on defensively and is sitting with Goff figuring out what they’re going to do offensively.

Personally, I think Xs and Os mean more now than they ever have.  The “leader of men” is stuff of the past.  The game has evolved way past getting guys to run through walls for you and is far more about scheming guys into positions to be successful on both sides of the ball.

 

McVay is an exceptional case IMO because he has both the originality and the communication skills.  And they complement each other really well.  

2x on live TV / radio he’s been asked by call-in / fans on specific game calls from 2-3 years prior.  And he’s nailed the exact play.  That photographic memory combined with design genius is not normal.  At all.  And it explains a ton of his success.  The term is often overused but here it’s truly a genius level of recall and design.   

But it would also be meaningless if he couldn’t reach his players.   And the O design responsibilities and spread-the-wealth approach in the passing game that he uses requires a full buy-in from his guys.   And they all comment on how well he gets everyone on the same page.   That’s the part that’s softer to analyze but in today’s era of star athletes (who often yield as much power as many coaches do and certainly aren’t afraid of), it’s absolutely necessary.   And that part is hard to predict, and a big part of whether or not a great OC/DC mind will succeed as a HC.  

I mean for all of his underachievement this year, we still recognize Wade Phillips has had an amazing DC career.   And it’s well earned.   But we also all recognize he was a disaster as a HC.   His skill set didn’t translate with the additional responsibilities that a HC holds.  McVay’s success is unlikely to be just due to X and O’s or great leadership.   He probably owns both sets.  But we should recognize how bright of a mind he is.   That type of intellectual ability is not at all normal.  

But, unlike some bright minds who aren’t even as gifted as he is - he doesn’t act like the smartest guy in the room and turn guys off. That is part of how he gets such buy-in.   But yet stil gets everyone on the same page in his vision but without making them think he’s dictating to them.   It’s an underrated skill.  My way or highway guys don’t last in today’s era without complete org buy-in (BB & NE).   Gase is the guy I think of as how it wears out (as I think he has overachieved with what he has been given, but also definitely rubs many ppl the wrong way).  

[germ-x]

40 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

 

McVay is an exceptional case IMO because he has both the originality and the communication skills.  And they complement each other really well.  

2x on live TV / radio he’s been asked by call-in / fans on specific game calls from 2-3 years prior.  And he’s nailed the exact play.  That photographic memory combined with design genius is not normal.  At all.  And it explains a ton of his success.  The term is often overused but here it’s truly a genius level of recall and design.   

But it would also be meaningless if he couldn’t reach his players.   And the O design responsibilities and spread-the-wealth approach in the passing game that he uses requires a full buy-in from his guys.   And they all comment on how well he gets everyone on the same page.   That’s the part that’s softer to analyze but in today’s era of star athletes (who often yield as much power as many coaches do and certainly aren’t afraid of), it’s absolutely necessary.   And that part is hard to predict, and a big part of whether or not a great OC/DC mind will succeed as a HC.  

I mean for all of his underachievement this year, we still recognize Wade Phillips has had an amazing DC career.   And it’s well earned.   But we also all recognize he was a disaster as a HC.   His skill set didn’t translate with the additional responsibilities that a HC holds.  McVay’s success is unlikely to be just due to X and O’s or great leadership.   He probably owns both sets.  But we should recognize how bright of a mind he is.   That type of intellectual ability is not at all normal.  

But, unlike some bright minds who aren’t even as gifted as he is - he doesn’t act like the smartest guy in the room and turn guys off. That is part of how he gets such buy-in.   But yet stil gets everyone on the same page in his vision but without making them think he’s dictating to them.   It’s an underrated skill.  My way or highway guys don’t last in today’s era without complete org buy-in (BB & NE).   Gase is the guy I think of as how it wears out (as I think he has overachieved with what he has been given, but also definitely rubs many ppl the wrong way).  

It doesn’t require all that full a buy in when everyone is catching 80 balls for 1000 yards and having a RB as an MVP candidate. 

McVays strength is his ability to scheme not his ability as an exceptional leader.  He’s able to keep everyone statistically happy, but even then Robert Woods, Cooper Kupp, and even Brandin Cooks aren’t guys who will complain about touches....They’ve built a very talented and selfless offense and McVay has schemed it to perform above and beyond. 

Again, nothing indicates he’s an exceptional leader and when your making everyone happy it makes “leading” all the more simple.

He’s a genius schematically.  That’s his strength.