dll2000 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 minute ago, ColGerBear said: Skrine played ST on 25% of the Jets ST snaps last year and 17.4% in 2017 I quickly watched most of 3 games from 2018 and didn't notice his number on special teams. But coaching film wasn't working on Xbox and broadcast view doesn't show all 22. What unit was he on? Where are you getting those numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColGerBear Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 minute ago, dll2000 said: I quickly watched most of 3 games from 2018 and didn't notice his number on special teams. But coaching film wasn't working on Xbox and broadcast view doesn't show all 22. What unit was he on? Where are you getting those numbers? https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLCbear Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Skrine >> Callahan Don't get all the love from this board for a brittle one yr wonder !! What did Callahan accomplish here prior to 2018 season ?? NOT MUCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwop1 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, SLCbear said: Skrine >> Callahan Don't get all the love from this board for a brittle one yr wonder !! What did Callahan accomplish here prior to 2018 season ?? NOT MUCH He's a good player when healthy but like all teams fans do with certain players, is a bit overrated by some. He was a UDFA for a reason. Pace so far has had a knack for finding these types of players. I'm confident in his ability to find a replacement down the road if not Skrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 4 hours ago, dll2000 said: My money says in a fair camp competition Skrine ends up depth. He is smaller, slower, and less physical than Tolliver and McMannis. I really don't like that he doesn't really contribute in special teams or he didn't in games I watched. Paying $8.5 mil gtd just for depth is big chunka' change IMHO. His penalties bother me more than anything but in a better defense those may lessen. One thing that does stand out in his metrics is that he's good cover guy. With a better pass rush than he's been playing with and Pagano scheming him well he may be a guy we can live with for now. FWIW, I don't see Tolliver ever playing in the slot. Wrong body type and skill set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, soulman said: Paying $8.5 mil gtd just for depth is big chunka' change IMHO. His penalties bother me more than anything but in a better defense those may lessen. One thing that does stand out in his metrics is that he's good cover guy. With a better pass rush than he's been playing with and Pagano scheming him well he may be a guy we can live with for now. FWIW, I don't see Tolliver ever playing in the slot. Wrong body type and skill set. Inside the box thinking. Get your best 3 cover guys out there and match up. Like basketball. A body type Tolliver doesn't match up with? Okay, switch with Fuller for this down. Basketball players know who is guarding who man or zone and they are doing quick transition. Not any harder for football players. Less hard really. Coverage responsibilities for corners is fairly simple no matter what is called. Doesn't take much to learn slot scheme vs. outside corner scheme. No reason I can think of that a DB can only play on outside and never on inside and vis a versa. Yes nuances, but not like it can't be learned with reps. Leaving a better athlete on sideline in favor of a worse one because this is way everyone else does it is stupid IMO. You don't have to follow a formula. Offense is winning in part because they are doing outside the box things like moving RBs out to WR. Getting TEs on corners and bullying them. Getting fast twitch players on LBs and beating them on two way go's. Getting favorable match ups because defense isn't adjusting to match up. It's being the cat and not the mouse. Forcing other guy to react to what you are doing. Took a long time for O line coaches to say maybe this guy is listed as an OT, we drafted him as an OT, but you know he is one of our best 5 blockers so I'm just going to go ahead and play him at guard. Once one started doing it, they all did it. Now everybody does that. It's same here. You could even include safeties in that mix. So many big corners that would be better at safety and sitting the bench. Get your best 5 or 6 best secondary players on the field and play. I don't care what 'position' they are. Big men can't shoot 3s they need to play in post. Only little guys can bring ball up. It only takes a few guys to change things and show it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 2 hours ago, dll2000 said: Inside the box thinking. Get your best 3 cover guys out there and match up. Like basketball. A body type Tolliver doesn't match up with? Okay, switch with Fuller for this down. Basketball players know who is guarding who man or zone and they are doing quick transition. Not any harder for football players. Less hard really. Coverage responsibilities for corners is fairly simple no matter what is called. Doesn't take much to learn slot scheme vs. outside corner scheme. No reason I can think of that a DB can only play on outside and never on inside and vis a versa. Yes nuances, but not like it can't be learned with reps. Leaving a better athlete on sideline in favor of a worse one because this is way everyone else does it is stupid IMO. You don't have to follow a formula. Offense is winning in part because they are doing outside the box things like moving RBs out to WR. Getting TEs on corners and bullying them. Getting fast twitch players on LBs and beating them on two way go's. Getting favorable match ups because defense isn't adjusting to match up. It's being the cat and not the mouse. Forcing other guy to react to what you are doing. Took a long time for O line coaches to say maybe this guy is listed as an OT, we drafted him as an OT, but you know he is one of our best 5 blockers so I'm just going to go ahead and play him at guard. Once one started doing it, they all did it. Now everybody does that. It's same here. You could even include safeties in that mix. So many big corners that would be better at safety and sitting the bench. Get your best 5 or 6 best secondary players on the field and play. I don't care what 'position' they are. Big men can't shoot 3s they need to play in post. Only little guys can bring ball up. It only takes a few guys to change things and show it can be done. What did you see in Tolliver last year that suggested he was ready for a primary role this year? Take away his 5* Rivals pedigree and Tolliver is just another UDFA who looks the part but has never (even in college) shown that he’s got any ability as a corner to match up with that. Skrine may be a pretty average nickel, but we know he’s at least that. We have no idea what Tolliver is, and if the team (those who would know better than anyone) thought Tolliver was a legit candidate for the slot then they flatly wouldn’t have signed Skrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskieBear Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 23 hours ago, soulman said: Not a bad way to look at it Windy. I would not have trusted McManis there all year plus his starting weakens our coverage teams. Obviously we need to redraft the position anyway and a few have hit on Rock Ya-Sin as a prospect. Even if he turns out to be as good as Callahan he won't be at that level as a rookie. Neither was Callahan. Skrine's deal is more than likely an out in two deal with a favorable 2019 cap hit. It's tough to lose a top DB but it happens and you tough it out. I'm not a fan of Skrine either so we draft a Slot CB and sign another one or two as UDFAs and we find our next guy. Callahan was priced out for us. Rock likely gets drafted in the first two rounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBHalas Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 7 hours ago, dll2000 said: Inside the box thinking. Get your best 3 cover guys out there and match up. Like basketball. A body type Tolliver doesn't match up with? Okay, switch with Fuller for this down. Basketball players know who is guarding who man or zone and they are doing quick transition. Not any harder for football players. Less hard really. Coverage responsibilities for corners is fairly simple no matter what is called. Doesn't take much to learn slot scheme vs. outside corner scheme. No reason I can think of that a DB can only play on outside and never on inside and vis a versa. Yes nuances, but not like it can't be learned with reps. Leaving a better athlete on sideline in favor of a worse one because this is way everyone else does it is stupid IMO. You don't have to follow a formula. Offense is winning in part because they are doing outside the box things like moving RBs out to WR. Getting TEs on corners and bullying them. Getting fast twitch players on LBs and beating them on two way go's. Getting favorable match ups because defense isn't adjusting to match up. It's being the cat and not the mouse. Forcing other guy to react to what you are doing. Took a long time for O line coaches to say maybe this guy is listed as an OT, we drafted him as an OT, but you know he is one of our best 5 blockers so I'm just going to go ahead and play him at guard. Once one started doing it, they all did it. Now everybody does that. It's same here. You could even include safeties in that mix. So many big corners that would be better at safety and sitting the bench. Get your best 5 or 6 best secondary players on the field and play. I don't care what 'position' they are. Big men can't shoot 3s they need to play in post. Only little guys can bring ball up. It only takes a few guys to change things and show it can be done. I have to disagree with you about playing the slot vs outside. When you play outside you can dictate and disrupt the receiver's route easier. For instance you can play inside, and force him either to cross your face or take an outside release where you can use the sideline. Same thing applies on playing to the outside, only with an inside release you might be pushing him to your safety for help. When you play the slot, the slot receiver has the advantage. They can release either direction and break open quicker. Guys like Edelman and Amendola have made a career about two way gos and getting open quickly for Brady. A slot corner does more chasing than anything. That's why they prefer quick twitch smaller guys inside, so they can recover quicker to the slot receiver movements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 hour ago, HuskieBear said: Rock likely gets drafted in the first two rounds I just picked out a recognizable name that's been tossed around. What means is we'll need to draft and redevelop the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beardown3231 Posted March 14, 2019 Author Share Posted March 14, 2019 20 hours ago, soulman said: I just picked out a recognizable name that's been tossed around. What means is we'll need to draft and redevelop the position. Iman Marshall in round 4 or 5 would be a nice prospect to get in the building and develop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 5 hours ago, beardown3231 said: Iman Marshall in round 4 or 5 would be a nice prospect to get in the building and develop I haven't really done much looking at rookie prospects other than a handful of RBs and a few DBs and OLB/Edge guys. In the past I've always focused on the first two rounds because that's where teams need to score starters and also where the biggest risks are and we're out of that part this year. Once it gets beyond those rounds it's much tougher for me to predict picks other than to have some names I'm familiar with. I'm not an accomplished draftnik or mock artist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 On 3/12/2019 at 11:21 PM, GBHalas said: I have to disagree with you about playing the slot vs outside. When you play outside you can dictate and disrupt the receiver's route easier. For instance you can play inside, and force him either to cross your face or take an outside release where you can use the sideline. Same thing applies on playing to the outside, only with an inside release you might be pushing him to your safety for help. When you play the slot, the slot receiver has the advantage. They can release either direction and break open quicker. Guys like Edelman and Amendola have made a career about two way gos and getting open quickly for Brady. A slot corner does more chasing than anything. That's why they prefer quick twitch smaller guys inside, so they can recover quicker to the slot receiver movements. I agree with what you are saying. That is the conventional wisdom and there is mostly truth in conventional wisdom even though it gets a bad rap. I think it is possible to bully and be physical with a slot receiver though. Belichick has done it. Also, if you can't, say a guy like Edelman is eating your lunch, you switch a quicker smaller player like Fuller inside and just match up better. If a team isn't 3 deep with studs at all WR positions you can do that. Now Tolliver or Prince is guarding Hogan on outside and Fuller is guarding Edelman inside. Looks much better all of a sudden. Not every team has a great short area slot receiver like Edelman. In those cases you leave Prince or Tolliver inside. Plus now you have a more physical run/screen defender on the field versus having a smaller guy like Skrine out there. If you have your 3 best players out there you can do things like that. Like I said before you match up like a basketball defense would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 On 3/14/2019 at 8:45 AM, dll2000 said: I agree with what you are saying. That is the conventional wisdom and there is mostly truth in conventional wisdom even though it gets a bad rap. I think it is possible to bully and be physical with a slot receiver though. Belichick has done it. Also, if you can't, say a guy like Edelman is eating your lunch, you switch a quicker smaller player like Fuller inside and just match up better. If a team isn't 3 deep with studs at all WR positions you can do that. Now Tolliver or Prince is guarding Hogan on outside and Fuller is guarding Edelman inside. Looks much better all of a sudden. Not every team has a great short area slot receiver like Edelman. In those cases you leave Prince or Tolliver inside. Plus now you have a more physical run/screen defender on the field versus having a smaller guy like Skrine out there. If you have your 3 best players out there you can do things like that. Like I said before you match up like a basketball defense would do. I don’t disagree at all with getting your 3 most talented players out there. I just haven’t seen anything from Tolliver to suggest he’s in that group just yet. He certainly could show himself after a full year of development to have worked himself into that but we definitely can’t bank on it. Deiondre’ Hall had all the potential in the world too but ultimately he’s just a super athletic guy with freakishly long arms. H/W/S is what made Tolliver a 5* recruit and lack of production in the role is what left him undrafted. Whether he falls at either end of that spectrum or somewhere in between remains very much up in the air at this point IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Pace has to be hopin' Tolliver's ascent will help him to bail on Amukamara after this season. We're gonna be due for some cap cuts sooner than later. I don't see Tolliver ever playing in the slot except on a rare occasion but C-Dix gives us a bigger guy who has good enough short area and quickness to play as a Slot CB and we still have McManis to compete with Skrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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