Broncos Shopping SS TJ Ward - CUT Signs w TB

[AKRNA]

33 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

I don't think they were actually working on a deal. I think TJ and his agent wanted one, made a public push for it, and Elway said no.

I read that was the case. Sometime prior to TC. Given our young safeties development that shouldn't have been a surprise to TJ.

[BroncoBruin]

19 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I read that was the case. Sometime prior to TC. Given our young safeties development that shouldn't have been a surprise to TJ.

That was probably set in stone when they gave Darian Stewart an extension. Two rookie safeties waiting in the wings + Elway had made similar choices at defensive end and inside linebacker in the past year: extending Wolfe but not Malik, extending Marshall but not Trevathan. He won't leave the cupboard empty but he also won't over-commit to a non-premier position.

[Broncofan]

7 hours ago, AKRNA said:

I read that was the case. Sometime prior to TC. Given our young safeties development that shouldn't have been a surprise to TJ.

 

7 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

That was probably set in stone when they gave Darian Stewart an extension. Two rookie safeties waiting in the wings + Elway had made similar choices at defensive end and inside linebacker in the past year: extending Wolfe but not Malik, extending Marshall but not Trevathan. He won't leave the cupboard empty but he also won't over-commit to a non-premier position.

I don't think Elway was considering an extension either FWIW.   But keep in mind our run D never got addressed completely at the DL so letting Ward play out his contract then walk was probably plan A.   Carter's emergence and inability to be stashed on the PS and Simmons showing he was ready to step in at least pass-coverage wise (which we could see coming but it's another thing to see it on the field) changed things now - which led to the timing.  

Remember too that Ward admitted to Renck in private a week before the reports surfaced on his possible release that he saw this as a possibility.  The public response by players only came when the report leaked on Tuesday.   The extension public talk and release stories/talk shows the new facet of social media in negotiation and posturing we see nowadays.   Even what Will Parks did earlier this offseason in OTA's shows the new mindset - public posting is seen by players as fair game on what usually used to be kept private behind closed doors.  Parks' misstep was unintentional in that it showed Lynch in a bad light but the mindset that posting in public is the reality nowadays.   

Ward & teammates lobbying in OTA for extension and now to not release him is part of the new reality of social media with players.   It's clearly used as a negotiating tactic for PR. The fact our org (Elway and VJ) rarely tips its hand with public replies creates more misdirection but it is far better than making negotiations and team matters public (like WAS did with Cousins, that only made WAS look silly).    All of which to say the public talk of the Ward extension around OTA had me worried but Elway's non-commital response (with praise for Ward's leadership) was probably as negative a response as he was giving in public but probably way more definite in private.   Still a long ways from planning his exit this year though but in reality Ward got Pipp'd not only by Simmons for the starter job but Carter for the 4th S spot this preseason.  That was the unpredictable part Elway & co. never saw coming - it took both events to create the roster squeeze that led to Ward's exit. 

 

[Broncofan]

9 hours ago, elliot878 said:

 

The fact that they were working on a deal before camp and ended up cutting him loose tells me they had no clue Carter was the player that he's shown to be throughout preseason and training camp.  @Broncofan is spot on about this.

My concern is whether TJ's outspokenness so far about the situation will hurt Elway's recruiting of free agents over the next year or two.  It's a shame because this happens all over the league, year in, year out - just Denver's turn, I guess.

It really is no different - Ward didn't have guaranteed money and in the last year of his deal.  Lots of guys get cut in similar situations.  I get he was a leader in 2014-15 and set the tone but time marches on.   We would have cut Ryan Clady if the Jets didn't offer a late pick for him with a much longer history .  The timing sucks but we understand why even the players get it - the posts supporting Simmons have already started - Wolfe Talib Marshall at last count have joined CJ.  

There's no doubt that the NFL CBA is a team-friendly one it's not even close but Ward's case happens every year.   I doubt this has any effect TBH on our future ability to recruit or retain FA.   Players' perceptions of us as a contender and $ are the 2 biggest factors.  Calais Campbell is exhibit A - contender home town great D but less $ - in the end $ spoke louder (and given his age I don't blame him one bit). 

[jsthomp2007]

The Patriots do players all the time the way Elway did Ward.  In fact, they do it yearly.  

[BroncosFan2010]

The Patriots have a unique player culture that absorbs cuts like this in a way that would affect other teams.

TJ was a team leader, and only had a single year left on his deal. If we keep him we keep a comp pick, we don't rustle the locker room, we could get creative if he cant pass cover anymore and use him as a LB hybrid or move him around more. He still has value. I never was for signing him after the deal was done, but cutting him like this right before the season. Foolish.

This team is clearly not about winning Super Bowls right now. From the underwhelming FA signings, to a draft that secured one plug-and-play starter, to the release of TJ. We are a middling team at this point with a slowly declining defense and a porous offense. Its simply the truth. And the one aspect of our defense that has been steady for the past 2-3 seasons has been the No Fly Zone. And we foolishly decide to rustle their feathers a week before the season starts by releasing a vocal team leader. IDK. I just dislike this all around. What about making TJ a hybrid LB if he wasn't beating Simmons in TC/PS? He could have gotten tons of snaps in that role if we got creative.

Just another whiff in an offseason of whiffing. Just wait a freaking year and let him walk.

And don't get me started on bringing back Osweiler. What a joke.

[AnAngryAmerican]

2 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

The Patriots have a unique player culture that absorbs cuts like this in a way that would affect other teams.

TJ was a team leader, and only had a single year left on his deal. If we keep him we keep a comp pick, we don't rustle the locker room, we could get creative if he cant pass cover anymore and use him as a LB hybrid or move him around more. He still has value. I never was for signing him after the deal was done, but cutting him like this right before the season. Foolish.

This team is clearly not about winning Super Bowls right now. From the underwhelming FA signings, to a draft that secured one plug-and-play starter, to the release of TJ. We are a middling team at this point with a slowly declining defense and a porous offense. Its simply the truth. And the one aspect of our defense that has been steady for the past 2-3 seasons has been the No Fly Zone. And we foolishly decide to rustle their feathers a week before the season starts by releasing a vocal team leader. IDK. I just dislike this all around. What about making TJ a hybrid LB if he wasn't beating Simmons in TC/PS? He could have gotten tons of snaps in that role if we got creative.

Just another whiff in an offseason of whiffing. Just wait a freaking year and let him walk.

I agree with every word of this. I think it's going to be a rough year. 

I really like what you say about getting creative with TJ. He doesn't have to be on the field for every play, if you think he's declining and you want to get Simmons some playing time and keep Carter (who I am excited about) you can do that with creating wrath and acrimony in the locker room. You can even play Simmons at FS and Stewart at SS with Carter (or even Parks) as the S/LB hybrid in passing situations, you can roll one or all of those guys out even for a majority of the plays (they play 55% of snaps and TJ plays 45%, or some such ratio). And while TJ probably doesn't like standing on the sidelines for half or more of the game, at least you don't rankle the locker room. He signs elsewhere next year, we get comp. pick and our young guys got plenty of meaningful snaps and experience to be ready to roll for 2018. We didn't need the money we saved by cutting him, who needs $15m in cap space once the season starts? We get that contract off our books next year to sign (more middling) free agents in the spring. 

This is one of the worst decisions Elway has made in his seven years as GM. 

[BroncoBruin]

How many players in the past 10-15 years have actually played out their entire second contracts (of three or more years) while with the Broncos? Something a buddy and I were talking about recently. Champ's 2004-2010 contract is the one exception that comes to mind, but he got 7 years for 63 million in 2004 and factoring for inflation no corner's contract today comes close to that. So much so that it was still a great contract for Champ in 2010.

[elliot878]

8 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I agree with every word of this. I think it's going to be a rough year. 

I really like what you say about getting creative with TJ. He doesn't have to be on the field for every play, if you think he's declining and you want to get Simmons some playing time and keep Carter (who I am excited about) you can do that with creating wrath and acrimony in the locker room. You can even play Simmons at FS and Stewart at SS with Carter (or even Parks) as the S/LB hybrid in passing situations, you can roll one or all of those guys out even for a majority of the plays (they play 55% of snaps and TJ plays 45%, or some such ratio). And while TJ probably doesn't like standing on the sidelines for half or more of the game, at least you don't rankle the locker room. He signs elsewhere next year, we get comp. pick and our young guys got plenty of meaningful snaps and experience to be ready to roll for 2018. We didn't need the money we saved by cutting him, who needs $15m in cap space once the season starts? We get that contract off our books next year to sign (more middling) free agents in the spring. 

This is one of the worst decisions Elway has made in his seven years as GM. 

 

I don't suspect we'll miss him as much as we think we will right now.  Seems like a classic snap reaction by a fanbase, but we're making him out to be something he's not.  Elway needs that rollover money, this teams up against the cap with a middling roster.  Not a situation any GM wants to be in.

 

[elliot878]

10 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

The Patriots have a unique player culture that absorbs cuts like this in a way that would affect other teams.

 

 

I wouldn't call it unique.  Most veterans are willing to deal with an all business dictatorship in the twilight of their careers if it means a few runs at a SB.  That's the luxury NE has with their current regime, and one that would be the case in any NFL city with this level of sustained success.

 

Can't wait til Bill and Brady move on and that franchise and their complete joke of a fanbase go back to playing home games in Alabama because they can't fill a stadium.

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

I don't suspect we'll miss him as much as we think we will right now.  Seems like a classic snap reaction by a fanbase, but we're making him out to be something he's not.  Elway needs that rollover money, this teams up against the cap with a middling roster.  Not a situation any GM wants to be in.

I generally don't have any issues cutting bait with a declining veteran, but this situation just irks me. It was made preposterously late in the offseason, striking guys by surprise right before kickoff. It was a vet cut made against the only group on this team that did not decline after the SB victory. We are declining, simply put, and we go off and make a cut against our strongest, most vocal and influential group of players. Ya, this may be a nice cut to get us some rollover cap for another middling veteran next summer. But if want to sneak into a wildcard spot, its not the type of move that bodes well IMO.

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I generally don't have any issues cutting bait with a declining veteran, but this situation just irks me. It was made preposterously late in the offseason, striking guys by surprise right before kickoff. It was a vet cut made against the only group on this team that did not decline after the SB victory. We are declining, simply put, and we go off and make a cut against our strongest, most vocal and influential group of players. Ya, this may be a nice cut to get us some rollover cap for another middling veteran next summer. But if want to sneak into a wildcard spot, its not the type of move that bodes well IMO.

The cap gain is a side issue though - Jamal Carter's rise to where the coaching staff were convinced he couldn't get through WW to the PS was the driver.   They clearly wanted to roster only 4 safeties.   Now sure maybe we don't need 4 ILB and put Ward in a hybrid position but that's where Todd Davis (no idea why we are so attached but whatever) being hurt likely made them feel we had no choice but roster 4 ILB and 4 true safeties.  

That roster squeeze is in part due to to Elway's practice of investing high picks in guys he can't stash who should be on the PS (Gotsis last year, Langley this year and the combo of C-Henderson/McKenzie - taking 1 is fine but 2 of them on active roster takes up huge versatility in their rookie year).  Now IR gave us an out with C-Henderson but those decisions on early round stashes you have to keep on the active roster really creates a roster pinch when things don't go perfectly (needing a 3rd QB) or someone shows up ahead of schedule like Carter and C-Henderson did in the preseason.   

Keep in mind while we see ourselves as a declining team other orgs keep mining our team roster for talent - Schofield Raymond and Sloter all got pinched by other teams right after we decided to cut bait and we even got a decent trade return for Schofield.  So it's hard to argue that Carter being kept wasn't a good move given our ability to ID great DB's.  I just wish we stopped overvaluing guys like Todd Davis and Crick - Davis being so highly thought of it meant giving no thought of Ward as a hybrid (just like Crick coming back led Elway & VJ to stand pat with 3-4 DE with the league waiver run).

 

[AnAngryAmerican]

11 hours ago, elliot878 said:

 

I don't suspect we'll miss him as much as we think we will right now.  Seems like a classic snap reaction by a fanbase, but we're making him out to be something he's not.  Elway needs that rollover money, this teams up against the cap with a middling roster.  Not a situation any GM wants to be in.

 

It's not that we're going to miss him terribly much, if at all, on the field. His skills are declining and that was evident last year. He was a good blitzing safety and Wade knew how to take advantage of that, he was above-average in run support but a liability in coverage. The problem is everything else around his release - the timing, the fact it saved us no money that can be used to improve the team now (how nice would that extra $4m have been in early March?) and the fact that doing it caused turbulence in The No Fly Zone (sorry for the bad pun, I couldn't resist). It was a tough situation to be in for sure but it was handled poorly from start to finish. 

[thebestever6]

I'm more upset how the front office used our drafting sources. Like we draft walker in the 2nd to do what? we all thought hes gonna replace malik jackson in that pass rush up the middle role. And they move him to olb basically to redshirt.

I just would like to see a plan.

This team has no identity. Being versatile the nonsense mike mccoy rambles on about is a code word for I have no idea what our identity is. Whats gonna happen in January? I dont wanna run as much spread in january put Janovich back there line up in the I and use the 6 rbs we have.

[iLikeDefense]

32 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I'm more upset how the front office used our drafting sources. Like we draft walker in the 2nd to do what? we all thought hes gonna replace malik jackson in that pass rush up the middle role. And they move him to olb basically to redshirt.

I just would like to see a plan.

This team has no identity. Being versatile the nonsense mike mccoy rambles on about is a code word for I have no idea what our identity is. Whats gonna happen in January? I dont wanna run as much spread in january put Janovich back there line up in the I and use the 6 rbs we have.

Um they moved him to OLB because we lost Shaq and Ray early in camp. They had a plan, it had to change.

The second part. I have no idea what you are talking about..