Broncos Shopping SS TJ Ward - CUT Signs w TB

[Scoundrel]

I did say right when the draft ended Parks was our best pick...

[1234567]

There's GOT to be some sort of health concern/other variable involved that we aren't hearing about yet. You don't completely nuke your locker room chemistry 1 week before opening night by dumping a pro bowler unless there is something wrong (especially with a rookie head coach). I get the monetary logic in trading him. But to drop him outright this late in the preseason would be more or less a slap in the face to that defense. A lot of those guys took home town discounts to stay here with loyalty and commitment to excellence being major reasons why. Watching one of their own get thrown overboard just to save a couple mil isn't going to go over well. 

[BroncoBruin]

I just think they're trying to create cap space for 2018, and they view him as the most expendable piece with a decent salary. He's only the 7th best player on the defense but he, Talib and Von are the biggest presences on the team. This feels like the first time Elway really didn't do right by the team and it's telling from player quotes. 

[broncos67]

I mean, this is why GMs get paid the big bucks. It's better to part with a guy one year early than one year late. I like Ward as a leader, absolutely no way around it, but his play tailed off last year, particularly in pass coverage. Myself and many others pointed that out time and time again. You have to balance the youth movement with the leadership. Ward was going to be gone one way or another. I do worry about who mans the enforcer role, but we'll see. Honestly, it could be Todd Davis the way everyone has been hyping him up inside the facility this year. Ward might also have health concerns- that's stuff we're not privy to.

Clearly this means they like the Simmons/Parks/Carter combination though, and they should. 

[Broncofan]

5 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

I just think they're trying to create cap space for 2018, and they view him as the most expendable piece with a decent salary. He's only the 7th best player on the defense but he, Talib and Von are the biggest presences on the team. This feels like the first time Elway really didn't do right by the team and it's telling from player quotes. 

To be fair, when we let Danny Trevathan walk, Brandon Marshall made a lot of noise, and then expressed displeasure with his not being extended - which went away with his extension.   Even when Malik Jackson got paid, the players expressed a lot of unhappiness he was leaving, even though there was no way we could get him paid.    Marshall & the other O players were really unhappy when CJ Anderson got the min tender, and then got the MIA offer - no doubt as Elway caved to match (which was a bad business decision, $-wise), they're hoping their voice has some influence here.  The difference being that Elway has a lot more viable options at S than he saw at the time with RB (which is another fallacy, but that's a post for a different topic).

Players are always going to clamor for more investment - they canvassed hard for Calais Campbell, super-hard.  They wanted all their 2015 vets retained even though it was impossible to do so.   It's part of human nature.   If Parks & Simmons replace Ward, and play well, the dissent goes away.  If they struggle in run support/blitz timing (again, I have no real concerns that Ward's pass D will be missed, it's his run support/enforcement and blitz timing that he was an asset in - but as @iLikeDefense pointed out, he wasn't immune to giving up the big play there either), then sure, the players will be unhappy - but I wouldn't go so far as to say this is the first time Elway's being pressured by his players "to do right" - it happens almost every time a vet is either due to leave in FA, or in this case, going to get cut.  It's just the first time it's a cut, rather than letting a guy walk.  That changes the optics somewhat, but it's not the first drama Elway's faced when it comes to business/$ decisions.

[Broncofan]

44 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

I mean, this is why GMs get paid the big bucks. It's better to part with a guy one year early than one year late. I like Ward as a leader, absolutely no way around it, but his play tailed off last year, particularly in pass coverage. Myself and many others pointed that out time and time again. You have to balance the youth movement with the leadership. Ward was going to be gone one way or another. I do worry about who mans the enforcer role, but we'll see. Honestly, it could be Todd Davis the way everyone has been hyping him up inside the facility this year. Ward might also have health concerns- that's stuff we're not privy to.

Clearly this means they like the Simmons/Parks/Carter combination though, and they should. 

In the end, it's why I don't have a problem with the decision if Elway goes there, as much as I recognize it may still hurt us short-term in some areas.   I've been banging the drum for Ward to NOT get extended since last year, and go Stewart instead, and was thrilled when Elway did that.     The timing is bad here to do it days before Week 1, you'd like Elway to have given Ward enough respect to cut him early if he was going there, so he could have the best chance to find not only a job (he will, that's not an issue), but also get a chance to recoup the $ he'll lose (because that's not happening this late in the offseason, he's not getting that $ back - and that's a huge reason why the vets are also upset, they won't say it, but they all know it and feel it).   But that's life in the NFL - timing is rarely perfect when hard business decisions need to get made.   I don't think we can say we feel comfortable that Ward's run support/blitz timing and enforcement can be replaced though, and that's a fair concern, very fair.  It's probably why they didn't make this decision much sooner, and why it's still not a done deal.

It's also not just a $ game here, the numbers game for the 53 man roster factors in here.   If people were up in arms about my statement of D-Henderson being a PS candidate with us needing 3-QB's on the active roster, and the risk of putting him through waivers to get there, they should be concerned 5-10X more about a guy like Carter.   RB is incredibly disposable talent-wise, compared to secondary - teams value secondary guys that much more over RB's.    It's not just Parks/Simmons that are driving this decision, it has to be Elway's concern about trying to get a guy like Carter (or maybe even Orion Stewart, although Carter is the more at-risk guy IMO) through waivers in order to sneak him onto the PS.   

[elliot878]

19 hours ago, Broncofan said:

I actually think we will likely get just as if not better pass coverage skills from Parks/Simmons right now.  What I'm not convinced is that we get the run support / enforcement.   

I've been saying Ward is the weakest link in pass coverage by a mile since last offseason and that he wasn't worth re-signing after his deal expired.  That's still how I feel.   I do think we can match or improve our pass coverage without him.  But run D is where we are weakest.  If we had addressed run D more definitively I'd actually feel ok with the move from a pure football scheme perspective.    What sucks is that our run D is so thin we can't afford worse run support.  And that's his strength.  If we had addressed run D more we could afford this.   The PR fallout to me isn't nearly as problematic as having worse run support when we are really vulnerable there.  I'd actually be OK with taking the PR hit if we had similar pass D but at least the same run support.  Getting worse run support is a killer given how we are constructed right now. 

 

This is where my thoughts lie as well.  Elway has a surplus at S and he needs to trade from it to improve his run d.  It will suck for friends of TJ's in the locker room, but Elway can very easily spin a trade for a run stopping DL as, "you took a discount to stay here and compete, and we need help in the run D if we're going to compete."

 

i honestly think this team is going to be a bad football team, even a bad defense, if nothing is done on the DL.

[Broncofan]

16 minutes ago, elliot878 said:

 

This is where my thoughts lie as well.  Elway has a surplus at S and he needs to trade from it to improve his run d.  It will suck for friends of TJ's in the locker room, but Elway can very easily spin a trade for a run stopping DL as, "you took a discount to stay here and compete, and we need help in the run D if we're going to compete."

 

i honestly think this team is going to be a bad football team, even a bad defense, if nothing is done on the DL.

Yeah, I'll try and not beat the dead horse on our omissions on addressing DL with legit run stoppers....but it's hard not to.  

While Elway will get killed for approaching Ward on taking a paycut optics-wise, the flip side is would Ward have accepted a lesser role?  When it comes to pure pass coverage, there's no doubt IMO that Simmons or Parks are better.  And that's where it gets tough to pay a safety 4.5M to be a 2-down safety (and he can't just blitz on every passing down lol).   So while it looks awful from the outside, Elway's a pretty candid guy.  He could have easily said "listen, TJ, we love you, but we are going to use you for run support and spell you with one of our quicker guys on passing downs....so to keep you, a pay cut makes more sense for the team".  Of course that's hard to hear, and it's completely ignoring the past contributions, but GM's are cold-hearted across the board, Elway's no different, nor should be singled out.   We just don't know.

Anyways, all of that is just opinion and conjecture.    Sticking to what we actually know, reading the post-game comments - hard to not to conclude Ward's gone.    VJ has been very cagey to the press, and went out his way to prop up guys like Lynch and Garcia while there was still a "competition" - the lack of any endorsement of Ward is very telling here IMO.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/09/01/vance-joseph-declines-to-comment-on-t-j-ward-before-making-ominous-comment-about-him/

[champ11]

22 minutes ago, elliot878 said:

 

This is where my thoughts lie as well.  Elway has a surplus at S and he needs to trade from it to improve his run d.  It will suck for friends of TJ's in the locker room, but Elway can very easily spin a trade for a run stopping DL as, "you took a discount to stay here and compete, and we need help in the run D if we're going to compete."

 

i honestly think this team is going to be a bad football team, even a bad defense, if nothing is done on the DL.

No one is trading for a guy that is getting cut. Would be great if I'm wrong tho 

[Broncofan]

4 minutes ago, champ11 said:

No one is trading for a guy that is getting cut. Would be great if I'm wrong tho 

That's the rub.   The only guys getting traded are at premium positions (Laken Tomlinson, Cameron Erving, the PHI backup T for OL), or young and cheap and cost-controlled for multiple years (Reggie Ragland).    No one is paying for a guy DEN likely cuts today/tomorrow and then has to take on his 4.5M contract.  We traded for Barbre because he was an asset we needed, and was cheap - and we still only paid a conditional 7th for him -  because PHI tipped their hand they were going to release him anyways.    Hard to see anyone wanting to pay him 4.5M, let alone giving a pick.  If they wait until waivers, they can get a cheaper price for him, and keep the pick.  It's not like he's a huge difference-maker that will put a team over the top.  

If Elway can get any return, I'd tip my cap.  The odds given the above are way more towards a cut.

[jsthomp2007]

The only way anyone trades for Ward is if they don't want other teams to bid on his services.  

Didn't I read somewhere the Broncos wanted to cut Ward and then give him a lesser contract?  If that is the case why not just re--negotiate his contract?  Or, are there better cap implications by cutting and resigning him?  

[Broncofan]

8 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said:

The only way anyone trades for Ward is if they don't want other teams to bid on his services.  

Didn't I read somewhere the Broncos wanted to cut Ward and then give him a lesser contract?  If that is the case why not just re--negotiate his contract?  Or, are there better cap implications by cutting and resigning him?  

The issue that few teams will likely want to take him on at 4.5M if they can get him for cheaper by waiting for a release - and then they can offer him a much lower deal.  Ward isn't an elite safety, never was.   Hard to see any team wanting to pay him 4.5 AND giving up a pick.

Ward was approached by Elway for a pay cut to avoid getting released/traded, not the other way around, according to Klis.     No way Ward comes back and signs with us if he gets cut, he'll find an offer from someone else over what Elway likely is offering.  Pride alone would prevent Ward from doing that - if he was seriously thinking about accepting, he would have accepted Elway's original offer this week.

[paul-mac]

I'm not a fan of this move, because where are we going to spend this money saved if we do indeed cut him? We have around $10m in cap space at present, and we aren't exactly going to be bringing anyone else in except perhaps some vet minimum in season signings to replace guys that get injured.

 

I could understand trading him for Sheldon Richardson or some other defensive line help, but I don't like trading him for a late round pick (You 99% of the time aren't getting a pro bowler late in the draft) and unless the front office literally think we have 4 safeties on the roster now that are better than TJ Ward, there's no reason to cut him.

 

Only argument I could see is if they're trying to increase the amount of cap room we can rollover to 2018 maybe?

[Broncofan]

22 minutes ago, paul-mac said:

I'm not a fan of this move, because where are we going to spend this money saved if we do indeed cut him? We have around $10m in cap space at present, and we aren't exactly going to be bringing anyone else in except perhaps some vet minimum in season signings to replace guys that get injured.

 

I could understand trading him for Sheldon Richardson or some other defensive line help, but I don't like trading him for a late round pick (You 99% of the time aren't getting a pro bowler late in the draft) and unless the front office literally think we have 4 safeties on the roster now that are better than TJ Ward, there's no reason to cut him.

 

Only argument I could see is if they're trying to increase the amount of cap room we can rollover to 2018 maybe?

Rollover always matters though.   

Also keep in mind we increased our cap hit by 1M by getting JC to stick (1.4m over Min wage guy).   Then any bonuses.  That 2018 number could go down further a fair bit (ironically I'd be happy if it went down 3M more, because then it would mean JC had a Pro Bowl like season.  I'm more worried it goes down another 1M, which is part of the season (10-12 games), then he goes down and out for year, in which case, mostly just wasted $...but I digress).

Most importantly it's not just $ it's the numbers game.  You just did the 53-man mock - Carter sticks this way.  Elway is probably convinced Carter can't be snuck through waivers to the PS.  

It's a gamble based on the Q if we can replace his run support and blitz timing / enforcer abilities.   Replacing his pass D is already a given with who we have imo.  

[BroncoBruin]

5 hours ago, Broncofan said:

To be fair, when we let Danny Trevathan walk, Brandon Marshall made a lot of noise, and then expressed displeasure with his not being extended - which went away with his extension.   Even when Malik Jackson got paid, the players expressed a lot of unhappiness he was leaving, even though there was no way we could get him paid.    Marshall & the other O players were really unhappy when CJ Anderson got the min tender, and then got the MIA offer - no doubt as Elway caved to match (which was a bad business decision, $-wise), they're hoping their voice has some influence here.  The difference being that Elway has a lot more viable options at S than he saw at the time with RB (which is another fallacy, but that's a post for a different topic).

Players are always going to clamor for more investment - they canvassed hard for Calais Campbell, super-hard.  They wanted all their 2015 vets retained even though it was impossible to do so.   It's part of human nature.   If Parks & Simmons replace Ward, and play well, the dissent goes away.  If they struggle in run support/blitz timing (again, I have no real concerns that Ward's pass D will be missed, it's his run support/enforcement and blitz timing that he was an asset in - but as @iLikeDefense pointed out, he wasn't immune to giving up the big play there either), then sure, the players will be unhappy - but I wouldn't go so far as to say this is the first time Elway's being pressured by his players "to do right" - it happens almost every time a vet is either due to leave in FA, or in this case, going to get cut.  It's just the first time it's a cut, rather than letting a guy walk.  That changes the optics somewhat, but it's not the first drama Elway's faced when it comes to business/$ decisions.

They may have been upset but both were free agents. Elway helped those two get big money. I'm pretty sure most guys understood and rationalized, but I also have no recollection of any real outcry to be honest. This is a lot different. The only comparable situation would be with CJ, but the timing here is worse and TJ is one of the team's leaders.