First impressions of Mike Mayock's first draft as GM

[Forge]

28 minutes ago, PossibleCabbage said:

I mean, you could have traded 4 for like 11 and a 6th round pick and still gotten Ferrell.  Question is whether you want the rep of a guy who sells for cheap.

But for whatever reason, trades at the top were way down this year.

The problem is, you don't know that he would have been there at 11 for a certainty. We just don't. And it's silly to take that risk for a 6th round pick. The raiders have actually done something similar before - in 2013 they moved down from 3 to like 11 or 12 for just a second round pick, which is an insanely low cost. They wanted DJ Hayden, he wasn't worth #3, so that's what they did. A second round pick may have made the offer worth it. Maybe it would have this time as well. We really don't know if that was even an option. 

[Mr Raider]

Im a Raider fan so im biased, but doing my best to stay neutral I thought it was a very solid first draft. 

I didnt love Ferrell at 4, but not because I don't like him as a prospect, I just thought it was a little early, but if you really look at the guys drafted around him, im not sure it's as much of a reach as some make it out to be. The next edge rusher was Allen and Gary. Gary while extremely athletically gifted he had the shoulder injury and a career of underachieving at Michigan. Maybe thats because of scheme, but its simply the truth. Obviously youre projecting their abilities at the pro level so production isnt always the be all, end all, but it does matter. Josh Allen I just wasnt as high on as a 4-3 DE. He has all the tools athletically speaking as well, and he also has the production, so if people want to say Mayock passed on the superior prospect, thats fine, a lot of people had Allen ahead on their boards, I can see that. But I personally saw too many instances of Allen running completely unblocked to a sack. I see small hands, and a slight frame (regardless of what his H/W/S profile says. I dont see him ever being an elite edge setter in the run game. I actually think in our scheme he would have played SLB that kicked down to rush the passer..i do love his ability to cover while also being the pass rusher that he is. In a 3-4 you have to take Allen over Ferrell, but in a 4-3 I didn't really value Allen as a top 4 prospect. Devin White has the ability to be an elite player, but he also doesn't have the greatest instincts yet and I think he has a pretty low floor. If you think you should swing for the fences in the top 5 that's fine, i personally just want to make sure im getting a guy thats a starting caliber contributor because half the time you arent getting that 3 years down the road, even in the first round. You could make a case for Oliver, hes one of two that I would have considered over Ferrell along with Sweat (but the heart issue knocked him down to 26 so I dont think it's crazy to pass at 4). Oliver has a terrific athletic profile, was a highly sought after recruit and has flashes that make you think hes the next Randall, but he's also undersized, didnt have the greatest pass rushing productivity, and had some injury concerns. He would habe made some sense qt 4 but he wasnt without questions either. Hurst also played very well as a rookie and if not for his own medical condition would have gone much higher last season. He turned in a solid rookie season, especially by DT standards, and the staff believes he has a huge amount of potential, pro bowl caliber potential, I dont think thats unreasonable either. We also invested a second round pick in PJ Hall last year, and while he battled injuries and showed nothing of note he was also a raw guy coming from a smaller level of competition, he was a long term project they may still believe in. Oliver wasn't going to be able to play alongside either of those guys long term. They're just too small to play together consistently. If you think Oliver can play on the edge some maybe you take him because he has the potential to be elite, and maybe you say none of the other stuff matters, take the guy with the potential to be elite, if thats your philosophy ok, you can qrgue for taking Allen. 

I dont necessarily think its fair that we have pigeonholed Ferrell into never being an elite player though. I think hes a guy that isnt super flashy, but can still have the potential of being an all pro. I think his ceiling is actually a guy like Jared Allen, and his floor is a decent starter that could be replaced, but can also be a starter on a super bowl winning team. You can do worse than that at 4. So yeah, there are some guys you could argue taking over him, and thats fine, but after the college season ended he was consistently in the top 10 on mocks. Hes super productive and the leader and best player on the best team in college, he has experience in big games, and played his best in them, hes still very young at 21, he is polished to a degree you rarely see in a guy his age in all the intricacies of pass rushing, and while not an elite athlete in terms of speed, his strmgth is up there with the premier pass rushers in draft classes, and hes athletic enough to be a pro bowl caliber player. I dont think its as much of a reach as some people have said, but that varies widely on how you evaluate players. 

I'll go into the rest of my thoughts on the draft class as a whole later. 

[SmittyBacall]

18 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

The Raiders are valuing attitude and culture over athletic ability, I think it's an outdated way of selecting football players.

The Raiders are valuing attitude and culture AND football ability over athletic ability. I don't see anything wrong with that. 

Ferrell is not an elite athlete. I'd never assert that. But he's definitely a capable athlete. That, coupled with everything else he does, makes him a very good prospect.

[Mr Raider]

23 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Come on, toe injury? Sure. That was a strategic move. It's nothing character related and I never implied that, he made a business decision not to work out and it paid off for him, smart man. No one thinks Ferrell would've tested well. At a position like EDGE I think it's fairly safe to reason in 2019 that a team picking top 15 is going to ding a guy down the board that they have no athletic profile on whatsoever. The Raiders are valuing attitude and culture over athletic ability, I think it's an outdated way of selecting football players.

They've said Ferrell may be held out at the beginning of workouts because of that injury, so its possible he did it to avoiding running, its also possible a guy that plays a demanding sport actually had some injuries 2 months after the season ended. 

[pnies20]

31 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

Simply put, they had Ferrell rated nearly as high as Nick Bosa. They didn't feel the same about the other pass rushers. If they didn't receive an offer from a team within the top 10 - to stay within what they believed to be Ferrell's draft slot range - they felt comfortable taking Ferrell at 4. 

I get that. Hopefully they’re right.

[tom cody]

I thought he had a good draft. Some great talent there, a bit of a reach on Ferrell at 4 though. 

[Chwf3rd25]

16 hours ago, m haynes said:

I laugh when they say he over reached with the 4th pick. Why is it a over reach, who says it a over reach Kiper, Cassidy, Bucky! No one knows Shcit. He took a player he liked after do his evaluation. 40 % of the 1st round picks will be bust and that is a fact.

Rae Carruth, WR, No. 27 Overall Pick in 1997 by Carolina Panthers.

Aundray Bruce, DE, No. 1 Overall Pick in 1988 by Atlanta Falcons. ...

Penn State RBs: Blair Thomas, Ki-Jana Carter and Curtis Enis. ...

Houston QBs: Andre Ware and David Klingler.------- and many more.

Many were considered can't miss players. How that work out.  Many of you are saying  Clelin Ferrell should of been picked between 10 -15 , How ironic, so your saying HE CAN PLAY AT A HIGH LEVEL.  And that's all you can hope for when you pick anyone.

I give him an A because he had a plan and a type he was looking for and went out and did it.

Me and 90% of people who spend time watching him think it was a reach.  If you want a more objective answer, he was universally seen as a mid/late 1st type of prospect and thus even if you actually had him in your top 5 overall it was a poor job of manipulating the draft board.

By your logic we shouldn’t comment on any of these drafts because anyone could bust.

[Chwf3rd25]

3 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

And what style of football is that, exactly?

This is just patently false. He didn't refuse to work out because he didn't want to work out. He injured his toe before his pro day. It left questions mark about his athleticism, but not his character like you're implying. There was no report of it scaring teams off. To think teams would remove him from their board for that is ludicrous. Would it ding his stock for some teams by leaving his draft profile incomplete? Sure. But to have him removed from consideration in the first? I highly doubt it. Especially considering he was the next potential 43 ends were Montez Sweat - with a heart condition diagnosis - and Rashan Gary - an athlete with little production and a shoulder injury. Ferrell checks pretty much every box. His tape is great with his athleticism fully on display, he's productive, he's a high-character guy, and he's very young (21). Calling Ferrell unathletic is ridiculous. He's plenty athletic. Look no further than at what he does on the field.

He ran a 3 cone and the shuttles with the turf toe.  Why in the world was he healthy enough to do those but not healthy enough to run a 40 or do any jumps?

3 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Simply put, they had Ferrell rated nearly as high as Nick Bosa. They didn't feel the same about the other pass rushers. If they didn't receive an offer from a team within the top 10 - to stay within what they believed to be Ferrell's draft slot range - they felt comfortable taking Ferrell at 4. 

You're seriously misinterpreting what Mayock said.  He was simply saying that Ferrell was his DE #2, not that he was "nearly as high as Nick Bosa."  

[Dr LBC]

16 hours ago, m haynes said:

I laugh when they say he over reached with the 4th pick. Why is it a over reach, who says it a over reach Kiper, Cassidy, Bucky! No one knows Shcit. He took a player he liked after do his evaluation. 40 % of the 1st round picks will be bust and that is a fact.

Rae Carruth, WR, No. 27 Overall Pick in 1997 by Carolina Panthers.

Aundray Bruce, DE, No. 1 Overall Pick in 1988 by Atlanta Falcons. ...

Penn State RBs: Blair Thomas, Ki-Jana Carter and Curtis Enis. ...

Houston QBs: Andre Ware and David Klingler.------- and many more.

Many were considered can't miss players. How that work out.  Many of you are saying  Clelin Ferrell should of been picked between 10 -15 , How ironic, so your saying HE CAN PLAY AT A HIGH LEVEL.  And that's all you can hope for when you pick anyone.

I give him an A because he had a plan and a type he was looking for and went out and did it.

First off, disguising your swearing to avoid getting nailed by our swear filter is the same as swearing itself.  Knock it off.

People are allowed to have opinion that you don't have to agree with, but you don't have to condescend to or demean them either.  You just come off looking like a hypocrite because you're making fun of the exact thing you're doing yourself.

If a team has three 1st round picks, including 1 in the Top 5, and doesn't come out with at least two franchise-changing building blocks, or a blue-chipper and a future 1st, it's a case of, at bare minimum, mismanaging assets.

I won't ever reward any team an "A" in a draft unless I don't feel they made any mistakes, in my opinion Mayock did.  Did he come out with quality players that will clearly help his team?  Definitely.  That's a B to B+ performance, not an A.

Unless you're getting transcendent talent at luxury positions (RB, S, TE, even WR) or unless you're what looks to be 1-2 pieces away from a deep playoff run, spending 1st round picks there is always going to be fighting an uphill battle.  To me, having three 1st's and balking at the idea of trading anything that wasn't either a future 1st or all three 1st's to move up to secure one of the two transcendent talents in the draft when the opportunity is present (I'd have pushed for something noteworthy coming back the other direction - like a future 1st or a 3rd and a future 2nd, but I wouldn't have been opposed to putting one of the later 1st's on the table in a package to go get Q or Bosa), that's just inexcusable.  To then turn around and spend those later 1st's on non-premium positions is nearly equally as bad.  You draft a safety in the 1st round, that safety better have the upside of an Earl Thomas, Sean Taylor, or Troy Polamalu.  Same with running backs, especially with running backs.

An honest assessment, minus there being a QB selected at #22, this feels like a very pre-2017 Cleveland Browns draft, where the various GM's had the opportunity to get difference makers or upgrade positions that were, yes, filled, but certainly upgrade-able, and instead they went for the volume approach .  Part of the reason I'm such a huge fan of Howie Roseman as a GM is because the dude is cutthroat, there are like 2-3 players on that roster that are "safe" on talent alone and then an addition maybe 3 or 4 that are temporarily safe because of the pay-schedule of the contracts they're on, but even then, he's not afraid to invest into someone that stands the potential to make one of those guys superfluous in a season or two if the opportunity presents itself.  Belichick isn't too far off from that same approach - he's just not quite as aggressive. (the luxury afforded to him because he's had the best OL coach in the league on his staff and the best QB in the league willing to take below-market pay for the past half decade or more).

[Dr LBC]

3 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Come on, toe injury? Sure. That was a strategic move. It's nothing character related and I never implied that, he made a business decision not to work out and it paid off for him, smart man. No one thinks Ferrell would've tested well. At a position like EDGE I think it's fairly safe to reason in 2019 that a team picking top 15 is going to ding a guy down the board that they have no athletic profile on whatsoever. The Raiders are valuing attitude and culture over athletic ability, I think it's an outdated way of selecting football players.

To be fair, it's how Tom Telesco built up a team that was pretty consistently #2 in that division but constantly #1 and never #1.  It wasn't until he and the club made the decision to pivot from that approach that they were able to turn the corner (and at least make the playoffs and win a playoff game again).

Whether the current staff in Oakland is or will be capable of making that pivot in the foreseeable future is an entirely different question to be answers.

[Calvert28]

I think they got some potential steals with Crosby and Johnson.

[Roninho]

15 hours ago, PossibleCabbage said:

I mean, you could have traded 4 for like 11 and a 6th round pick and still gotten Ferrell.  Question is whether you want the rep of a guy who sells for cheap.

But for whatever reason, trades at the top were way down this year.

Yeah i don't think it is good business long term to sell for cheap. Reggie McKenzie did that and we have been abused in trades during his entire tenure.

Looking at the lack of action in the top of the first round and also who were picked after the raiders pick i don't think there was a big offer on the table

[Roninho]

On ‎28‎-‎4‎-‎2019 at 7:08 AM, PossibleCabbage said:

His guys just aren't my guys, like philosophically I disagree with:

• drafting a pass rusher without a complete athletic profile.
• spending a first round pick on running back, particularly a running back who is not an "elite talent."
• spending a first round pick on a safety who is better against the run than the pass.

I mean, maybe he's right but I can't get past how much I dislike that first round.  He seems to have drafted "character over everything" but at some point you're going to need big, strong, fast people.

As a Raiders fan i unfortunately feel like you have some very valid points. Especially the RB and safety.

Ferrel is a reach at 4, but if you don't have a good offer on the table i'm fine with picking him.

 

[Roninho]

11 hours ago, Chwf3rd25 said:

Me and 90% of people who spend time watching him think it was a reach.  If you want a more objective answer, he was universally seen as a mid/late 1st type of prospect and thus even if you actually had him in your top 5 overall it was a poor job of manipulating the draft board.

By your logic we shouldn’t comment on any of these drafts because anyone could bust.

I think he was a reach as well. But to be fair if you want to manipulate the draft board you also have to have the inside knowledge of what other teams are going to do, not just what position the media thinks the players will go. For example on NFL.com the final mock draft by Jeremiah, Brooks, Schrager, Davis, Casserly, Zierlein and Lewis were posted.

Daniel Jones was selected 6th overall. They had him at 15, 17, 17, 17, 19, 32 and not in the first round.

DK Metcalf was selected 64th overall. 3 of them had him in the first round.

Montez Sweat was selected 26th overall. They had him 9, 11, 14, 16, 16 and 21. (one did not pick him in the first)

Chris Lindstrom was selected 14th overall. They had him 30, 31, 31 and 4 did not pick him in the first.

Using their wisdom i would have missed out on Jones and Lindstrom, and reached big time for Metcalf and Sweat.

I have no clue if Ferrel will be worthy of pick 4. But that most media had him on the 10-20 level pick on their mock draft doesnt mean much. If you believe in the guy it just takes one team to take him 5 spots earlier and you are out.

[m haynes]

17 hours ago, Chwf3rd25 said:

he was universally seen as a mid/late 1st type of prospect

By your logic,  the so call universe knows all. So believe in the Buckys all you want. Mayock did his job and took the best after his Evaluation the only one that matters.

 

18 hours ago, Chwf3rd25 said:

By your logic we shouldn’t comment on any of these drafts because anyone could bust.

No You can talk all you want but to say it a bad draft is ridicules. He did a great job. You don't like the players fine. You care what the Buckys say fine. Raiders had a plan and they followed through with that plan all the way to the end. That's all you can ask for when drafting.

Who was the best player in the draft????? The Buckys of the world said  Bosa, Williams, so taking Murray was a dumb move or other factors were involved. Just like the Raiders when they choose  the player they wanted. Let trade down and get him later. Oh crap he went at 9th pick. Draft shot and you blow your draft. Nice move.