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Bucs cut DT Gerald McCoy

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Nobody is saying the Browns will suck.  Nobody is saying the Browns fans shouldn't be excited for their team.  I'm just saying to pump the breaks in some regards.

Saying "I can understand McCoy signing with the Browns and Ravens, but the Panthers?" just doesn't make much sense.  Browns should be good, but at this point they haven't actually proven anything together - its not even like we are talking about a team who has had a winning record within the last 2 years. The Panthers are a season removed from an 11-5 record, nearly beating the Saints in the postseason, and were 6-2 last year until Cam got hurt.  I can get talking about the Browns as a team with potential to make some noise this year.  I don't care if people predict them to make the playoffs or even the Super Bowl, if you are that bold.  But it seems weird to talk about them like they are already a winner and how someone couldn't see why a player would sign with another team over the Browns.  We know the Panthers core can make the playoffs.  We know the Panthers core can make a Super Bowl.  We don't know that about the Browns yet.  Could they?  Maybe, but it's nothing more than speculation at this point.

And "faced with an objectively better team"?  Browns are not objectively better than the Panthers.  Newton is still the better QB than Mayfield.  Panthers have the better RB.  Panthers have the better OL.  Panthers have the better LBs.  Browns have a lot of star talent, but the Panthers are still talented as hell (we just don't get the hype for whatever reason) and have actually proven they can play and win together.  How am I being faced with an objectively better team?

 I actually think the Browns will be good this year and I could see them making the playoffs.  But a lot of you make it seem like they are already there yet.  They aren't some established winning franchise.  It's entirely reasonable a player would view the Panthers as giving him a higher chance to win a championship than the Browns.  

Yes, objectively better. At the very least, we can say this is an objectively better Browns team than the 2018 Browns, which was extremely close to going to the playoffs with an extremely inexperienced squad. This is a team whose probability of winning in the playoffs and a Superbowl are higher than the Panthers.

You talk about how the team has its unknowns, but yet you don't recognizer the unknown of Cam coming off his shoulder surgery??? Has he PROVEN that it will not affect his game?  I forgot that it was a given that he will return back to form. 

In terms of roster talent, you can not argue that the Panthers are better. 

In terms of offensive talent, the number of weapons are a better predictor for success. Teams will have to account for Nick Chubb (later with Kareem Hunt), Jarvis Landry, Odell Beckham jr, David Njoku, and many others all at the same time. The Browns can simply always put more offensive talent the field and they will always have favorable matchups compared to the Panthers. You just simply can't account for all of them. Our O line is certainly good enough to allow Baker to take advantage of those opportunities, and that is all that is necessary. 

On defense, we are stronger at positions that matter more. We have a pass rush from every part of the D-line with proven players in Myles Garrett, Olivier Vernon, Sheldon Richardson, and arguably Larry Ogunjobi. The secondaries don't compare. Everyone would take an excellent d line and secondary over over an excellent LB core, and its not as if the Browns LB core is holding that defense back. In terms of Gerald Mccoy, this supporting cast by far better equipped to support him and he will be much more likely to get 1v1 match ups due to what he has around him.

What you can argue is that Panthers squad is more experienced and has demonstrated success previously, but how strong a predictor is it for success in the future? You act this makes an immense impact, when we have frequently seen veteran squads break down and regress. I will admit that the Browns have a lot to prove, but there needs to be good reasons demonstrated to show why they will fail. This roster has been completely overhauled from 2016, and the newest players are from college or nfl teams that have won (and won alot), have performed at the highest level, or had both. I can see the coaching staff dropping the ball this year, but the likelyhood of the team being a complete dumpster fire is extremely low. Most gambling individuals, fans, and football coaches would likely pick the Browns to succeed over the Panthers in 2019, and I don't really see it being close.

Edited by Here'sJim

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Here'sJim said:

Yes, objectively better. At the very least, we can say this is an objectively better Browns team than the 2018 Browns, which was extremely close to going to the playoffs with an extremely inexperienced squad. This is a team whose probability of winning in the playoffs and a Superbowl are higher than the Panthers.

The Browns were not extremely close to making the playoffs.  At no point in 2018 did the Browns even have a winning record.  They finished 7-8-1.  The division was won with a 10-6 record by the Lamar Jackson led Ravens and the 6th seed also had 10 wins.  How were they extremely close?  

And I couldn't care less about some preseason probability measure.  Are you referring to betting/Vegas odds?  They aren't even necessarily trying to predict who they think will do better, they are trying to predict who they think fans will spend the $$ on.  And Browns are infinitely more popular than the Panthers.  So I'm not surprised they have better Vegas odds considering the casual fan probably will put money on them before the Panthers.

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You just simply can't account for all of them

Damn, the Browns are so overrated and over-hyped on this forum.  My overall point wasn't even trying to imply the Browns weren't going to be good this year but that implying that they are some winning franchise is ludicrious.

But alright, fair enough.  Browns will be impossible to stop this year because Mayfield literally can't get better (see OROY thread) and teams literally can't account for every player on the Browns offense.  

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What you can argue is that Panthers squad is more experienced and has demonstrated success previously, but how strong a predictor is it for success in the future? You act this makes an immense impact, when we have frequently seen veteran squads break down and regress. I will admit that the Browns have a lot to prove, but there needs to be good reasons demonstrated to show why they will fail. 

I never said the Browns will fail.  All I suggested was someone should pump the brakes before suggesting the Browns should be considered one of those "why would you not sign with them if you want to win?" teams.  

Yes, I get it.  The Browns have an improved roster.  They will likely contend for the playoffs.  I'm not denying any of that.  My point is the Panthers are not only a talented team as well, but a team with a track record.  It absolutely makes sense why a player would view them as giving them more of a chance over the Browns.  What's hard to understand about that?  

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You act this makes an immense impact, when we have frequently seen veteran squads break down and regress.

1.  We've also frequently seen up-and-coming, "super talented, can't defend 'em all" teams break down and "shockingly" miss the playoffs too

2.  I'm not acting like what the Panthers did in 2015 or 2017 means they will absolutely do good in 2019.  I already said I think the Browns will be good this year.  What I'm saying is, from what we know right now, someone saying "I can get why ____ would sign with the Browns, but the Panthers?!" sounds stupid.  I don't really get why you don't understand that part.  I'm not trying to diss the current Browns squad.  I'm just saying that talking about the Browns as if they have already won something is dumb.  Because they haven't won anything.  They haven't come close to winning anything.  They have been a losing franchise.  And I don't mean that as disrespect, its just facts.  They need to win before we consider them winners.  That seems logical to me.

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Most gambling individuals, fans, and football coaches would likely pick the Browns to succeed over the Panthers in 2019, and I don't really see it being close.

"I don't really see it being close"

Sure.  

Even if I concede the Browns will be better than the Panthers in 2019 and it won't be close, that isn't my point.  Whether the Browns are good this year or not is irrelevant to me.  All I was saying is lets wait for the Browns to actually do something on the field before we crown them as a team players should want to go to if they want to be a winner.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to explain to me why the Browns won't suck this year when I literally haven't said they will.  I'm just suggesting for them to actually, you know, have a winning record before we consider them to actually be a winning team.  When did having a winning record stop being a qualification for teams to be considered a winning team a player should want to go to if they want to win something? 

Edited by iknowcool

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, iknowcool said:

The Browns were not extremely close to making the playoffs.  At no point in 2018 did the Browns even have a winning record.  They finished 7-8-1.  The division was won with a 10-6 record by the Lamar Jackson led Ravens and the 6th seed also had 10 wins.  How were they extremely close, other than for Browns standards?  I mean, the Panthers finished 7-9 and actually had a winning record for most of the season.  If the Browns were extremely close, then what were the Panthers?  And if that's the case, then again... how are the Browns objectively better than the Panthers?

And I couldn't care less about some preseason probability measure.  Are you referring to betting/Vegas odds?  They aren't even necessarily trying to predict who they think will do better, they are trying to predict who they think fans will spend the $$ on.  And Browns are infinitely more popular than the Panthers.  

Damn, the Browns are so overrated and over-hyped on this forum.  My overall point wasn't even trying to imply the Browns weren't going to be good this year but that implying that they are some winning franchise is ludicrious.

But alright, fair enough.  Browns will be impossible to stop this year because Mayfield literally can't get better (see OROY thread) and teams literally can't account for every player on the Browns offense.  

I never said the Browns will fail.  All I suggested was someone should pump the brakes before suggesting the Browns should be considered one of those "why would you not sign with them if you want to win?" teams.  

Yes, I get it.  The Browns have an improved roster.  They will likely contend for the playoffs.  I'm not denying any of that.  My point is the Panthers are not only a talented team as well, but a team with a track record.  It absolutely makes sense why a player would view them as giving them more of a chance over the Browns.  What's hard to understand about that?  

1.  We've also frequently seen up-and-coming, "super talented, can't defend 'em all" teams break down and "shockingly" miss the playoffs too

2. Again, you are missing my point because you think I'm slighting the Browns.  I'm not acting like what the Panthers did in 2015 or 2017 means they will absolutely do good in 2019.  I already said I think the Browns will be good this year.  What I'm saying is, from what we know right now, someone saying "I can get why ____ would sign with the Browns, but the Panthers?!" sounds stupid  I don't really get why you don't understand that, other than the fact you are a Browns fan who thinks I'm dissing his team.  I'm not.  I'm just saying that talking about the Browns as if they have already won something is dumb.  Because they haven't won anything.  They haven't come close to winning anything.  

"I don't really see it being close"

Sure.  

And even if that is the case, you are still missing the point.  Whether the Browns are good this year or not is irrelevant to me.  Literally all I was saying is lets wait for the Browns to actually do something on the field before we crown them as a team players should want to go to if they want to be a winner.  I'm not sure why you keep trying to explain to me why the Browns won't suck this year when I literally haven't said they will.  I'm just suggesting for them to actually, you know, have a winning record before we consider them to actually be a winning team.  When did having a winning record stop being a qualification for teams to be considered a winning team a player should want to go to if they want to win something?

I am trying to assert that the statement "I can get why ____ would sign with the Browns, but the Panthers?!" is valid. I don't perceive you to be attacking the Browns, but the choice for Gerald Mccoy is clear (if he values personal success and wins). The only way you can argue that the Panthers are a better choice (or a comparable choice) is by showing how the Browns are likely to implode or fail. If you can't demonstrate that, the evidence suggests that this is the better destination for a free agent like Mccoy. If they don't implode, then this is better team for Mccoy by a lot. Let me spell out my thesis statement.

The Browns have a better roster (which directly compliments Mccoy and his ability to be productive) and a semblance of a track record that suggests that they can win (which shortens the gap to the perceived advantage that Panthers may have). This demonstrates that the Browns are better candidate than the Panthers, which makes "I can get why ____ would sign with the Browns, but the Panthers?!" type of statement, at the very least, not "stupid". 

1. On the topic of roster, I don't think you can argue that overall the Panthers are a better team. Especially at the positions that will help Gerald Mccoy for instance. That Browns D line will always free Mccoy up in ways that the Panthers Dline can't. On offense, Baker doesn't have to be better than his rookie year to take advantage of the added weapons, which everyone understands will create huge mismatches. Compared to Cam, who is coming off a shoulder injury (which you didn't address in your post), with less weapons, I think the choice is clear.

2. On the subject of track record, the Browns from last year did very well for being such young team that lost its head coach half way through. Yes, they were close to the playoffs.

In their game game against the Steelers week 1, the Browns go into overtime and miss a 43 yard field goal to tie it. 

In their game against their Saints they go into overtime and miss a potentially winning 41 yard field goal before losing. This is after a previous missed field goal and missed extra point that could have sealed victory.

In their game against the Oakland Raiders, the refs had an extremely controversial call on Carlos Hyde's run to close out the game, which allows the Raiders to get the ball back and put the game into overtime and win it.  This was after the refs had blown a strip sack fumble (which would have likely led to a touchdown) which the NFL later apologized for.

In their game against the Tampa Bay Bucs, the Browns go into overtime again and lose on a 59 yard field goal.

In their last game against the Ravens, Baker throws a pic on the opponents 40 yard line in a game after their kicker missed a kick that forced them to perform another drive. 

From these games, I would argue that the refs stole the Oakland game from the Browns and that a good kicker wins 2/4 of those other games. I don't think that is unreasonable to say they were close to a playoff birth (I don't know how close the Panthers were so I won't comment). In addition, this shows that this team is NOT far away from being a winning one. Any person can see that the Browns were in the majority of their games, and given the youth, performed admirably when pressure was high. This isn't proof, but to say that there is not evidence for future success is asinine. There is enough to suggest that the Browns are capable at winning, and the added talent and experience is enough to make a difference of 3 games (if not more).

TLDR: 

1.Browns Roster>>>Panthers Roster (especially as pertaining to Mccoy's success) especially considering Cam's recent shoulder surgery

2.Browns ability to win and be competitive has been demonstrated, which mitigates any perceived experience advantage the Panthers have.

Thus the Browns are a better destination point. To argue otherwise is to demonstrate that the Browns will collapse somehow. That is what I'm trying to address. 

 

Edited by Here'sJim

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Posted (edited)

Listing "if this happened instead of this" scenarios does not prove the Browns were extremely close to making the playoffs.  You could make the same argument for almost every team in the 7-9 win range in the NFL.  Panthers by comparison lost even more games by a small margin than the Browns did  (7 of their 9 losses were by less than a touchdown).  Unless you go back and do "what if's" for every team, then all we have to go by is the final results.  And Browns quite simply were not "extremely close" to the playoffs.  They could have had a chance if things worked out differently, but I'm not sure how we can say a team that finished with a losing record, never had a winning record at any point in the season (and was only at .500 for one week, unless we count the tie in Week 1), and finished with 3 less wins than their division leader and 3 less wins than the #6 seed was extremely close.  They didn't even have a chance at the playoffs in Week 17.  



What is the track record though?  They finished the season 5-3, but it isn't like they were beating any good teams.  The best team they played in that stretch were the Ravens, who they lost to, and the Texans, who beat the hell out of them.  And even the Panthers they struggled to beat despite Cam not being able to throw 15 yards down the field and would have lost the game at the end of Cam didn't miss the throw (which goes back to the whole "what if" scenarios - Browns could have won one of those games and lost that game).  Browns have no (positive) track record that suggests anything.  

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 a semblance of a track record that suggests that they can win (which shortens the gap to the perceived advantage that Panthers may have)

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That Browns D line will always free Mccoy up in ways that the Panthers Dline can't.

Browns defensive line is certainly better, but you seem to be acting like the Panthers aren't stout on the line as well.  We have Short, Poe, and Love with Addison coming off the edge.  Burns is an unknown right now, but our front seven is very good.

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I don't perceive you to be attacking the Browns, but the choice for Gerald Mccoy is clear (if he values personal success and wins)

Except it isn't clear.  The Browns haven't won anything.  It isn't like we're talking about the Patriots and Bills.  Its the Browns and Panthers.  The Browns could one day get to that point where, if a player values winning, he should consider the Browns as one of his top options.  But it's too soon to suggest that right now.  The Browns haven't proven anything.  They haven't won anything together.  If you believe they will, you are entitled to that.  No doubt Browns have a lot of talent.  But they should not be considered one of those "winning" teams yet.  Not until they actually... win.

And this is where the Browns being over-hyped and overrated comes in.  They have not proven anything yet for you, or anyone, to be acting like they are unequivocally better than the Panthers or any other team that isn't a consistent bottom-feeder.  Again, if you think they will be, alright fine.  But you are acting like it's completely unreasonable/improbable for a player to think that he has a better chance of winning with a team with a former MVP at QB and a team that has actually proven they can win together.  It is entirely possible the Panthers are better than the Browns this year.  Panthers are a damn good football team who only missed the playoffs last year because Cam got hurt.  

Edited by iknowcool

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2 hours ago, iknowcool said:

Nobody is saying the Browns will suck.  Nobody is saying the Browns fans shouldn't be excited for their team.  I'm just saying to pump the breaks in some regards.

Saying "I can understand McCoy signing with the Browns and Ravens, but the Panthers?" just doesn't make much sense.  Browns should be good, but at this point they haven't actually proven anything together. The Panthers are a season removed from an 11-5 record, nearly beating the Saints in the postseason, and were 6-2 last year until Cam got hurt.  I can get talking about the Browns as a team with potential to make some noise this year.  I don't care if people predict them to make the playoffs or even the Super Bowl, if you are that bold.  But it seems weird to talk about them like they are already a winner and how someone couldn't see why a player would sign with another team over the Browns.  We know the Panthers core can make the playoffs.  We know the Panthers core can make a Super Bowl.  We don't know that about the Browns yet.  Could they?  Maybe, but it's nothing more than speculation at this point.

And "faced with an objectively better team"?  Browns are not objectively better than the Panthers.  Newton is still the better QB than Mayfield.  Panthers have the better RB.  Panthers have the better OL.  Panthers have the better LBs.  Browns have a lot of star talent, but the Panthers are still talented as hell and have actually proven they can play and win together (the most important part).  How am I being faced with an objectively better team?  Browns might be better when it's all said and done, and if they are then good for them, but it is debatable.  At least for 2019 anyway.  Browns certainly have a higher and brighter long-term upside/outlook at this point given the age of their best players, whereas guys like Newton and Kuechly are probably in their prime (assuming Newton comes back feeling good).

 I actually think the Browns will be good this year and I could see them making the playoffs.  But a lot of you make it seem like they are already there yet.  They aren't some established winning franchise.  It's entirely reasonable a player would view the Panthers as giving him a higher chance to win a championship than the Browns.  

I agreed with almost everything you said, but the offensive line part. By what metric is your offensive line better? Browns gave up 1 sack when Freddie Kitchens took over as OC. Also, I’d take our core of runningbacks over your single runningback.

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Well hell, I just looked up Mccafreys stats. How is he better than Kareem Hunt?

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The Browns are likely a top 5 team in the AFC, starting this season. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

Well hell, I just looked up Mccafreys stats. How is he better than Kareem Hunt?

Hmm?  Their stats are similar.  C-Mac had better efficiency while Hunt had more TDs, albeit in an undoubtedly much more explosive offense.  Not sure why stats would definitively place Hunt over Mac, unless your holding Mac’s rookie season under Shula against him

However I don’t necessarily think he’s better than Hunt (but I would put them in the same tier ), but Hunt is also suspended for half the season and then will need to reacclimate himself to the offense.  That could be a seamless transition, but regardless I didn’t think it was worth factoring him in much.  Who knows how much of a role he will have by the time he’s back?

But I do agree, I would take the combo over Chubb and Hunt over Mac.  But I don’t think it makes much of a difference in terms of offensive success - Mac plays ~90% of snaps anyway.

Edited by iknowcool

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15 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

I agreed with almost everything you said, but the offensive line part. By what metric is your offensive line better? Browns gave up 1 sack when Freddie Kitchens took over as OC. Also, I’d take our core of runningbacks over your single runningback.

You could be right.  Panthers signed Paradis and will be getting Williams back, so our line is looking very strong and they were already solid last year before injuries wrecked them.  But if the Browns OL was as good as you say it is, that’s fair.  I can’t pretend like I know too much about their line.

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4 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Hmm?  Their stats are similar.  C-Mac had better efficiency while Hunt had more TDs, albeit in an undoubtedly much more explosive offense.  Not sure why stats would definitively place Hunt over Mac, unless your holding Mac’s rookie season under Shula against him

However I don’t necessarily think he’s better than Hunt (but I would put them in the same tier ), but Hunt is also suspended for half the season and then will need to reacclimate himself to the offense.  That could be a seamless transition, but regardless I didn’t think it was worth factoring him in much.  Who knows how much of a role he will have by the time he’s back?

But I do agree, I would take the combo over Chubb and Hunt over Mac.  But I don’t think it makes much of a difference in terms of offensive success - Mac plays ~90% of snaps anyway.

I’ll be honest, I know absolutely nothing about Carolinas scheme or coaching. I know nothing about how Shula managed Mccafery. However, it is fair to note Kareem had a dominating rookie season. It’s also fair to say that Hunt and Mccaffery are equals.

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27 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

I’ll be honest, I know absolutely nothing about Carolinas scheme or coaching. I know nothing about how Shula managed Mccafery. However, it is fair to note Kareem had a dominating rookie season. It’s also fair to say that Hunt and Mccaffery are equals.

I'd take Hunt over McCaffrey for sure. McCaffrey touched the ball 30 times per game in college and at one point Panther's coaches said they want him to touch it 25-30 a game. I can't imagine him having a long and healthy career.

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58 minutes ago, candyman93 said:

Well hell, I just looked up Mccafreys stats. How is he better than Kareem Hunt?

I hope you at least looked at his receiving stats as well.. he logged over 100 receptions last year with nearly 1,000 receiving yards. Dude is right there with Kamara and Bell as one of the best dual threat backs in the league. 

And I would take CMC over Hunt. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, iknowcool said:

Listing "if this happened instead of this" scenarios does not prove the Browns were extremely close to making the playoffs.  You could make the same argument for almost every team in the 7-9 win range in the NFL.  Panthers by comparison lost even more games by a small margin than the Browns did  (7 of their 9 losses were by less than a touchdown).  Unless you go back and do "what if's" for every team, then all we have to go by is the final results.  And Browns quite simply were not "extremely close" to the playoffs.  They could have had a chance if things worked out differently, but I'm not sure how we can say a team that finished with a losing record, never had a winning record at any point in the season (and was only at .500 for one week, unless we count the tie in Week 1), and finished with 3 less wins than their division leader and 3 less wins than the #6 seed was extremely close.  They didn't even have a chance at the playoffs in Week 17.  



What is the track record though?  They finished the season 5-3, but it isn't like they were beating any good teams.  The best team they played in that stretch were the Ravens, who they lost to, and the Texans, who beat the hell out of them.  And even the Panthers they struggled to beat despite Cam not being able to throw 15 yards down the field and would have lost the game at the end of Cam didn't miss the throw (which goes back to the whole "what if" scenarios - Browns could have won one of those games and lost that game).  Browns have no (positive) track record that suggests anything.  

Browns defensive line is certainly better, but you seem to be acting like the Panthers aren't stout on the line as well.  We have Short, Poe, and Love with Addison coming off the edge.  Burns is an unknown right now, but our front seven is very good.

Except it isn't clear.  The Browns haven't won anything.  It isn't like we're talking about the Patriots and Bills.  Its the Browns and Panthers.  The Browns could one day get to that point where, if a player values winning, he should consider the Browns as one of his top options.  But it's too soon to suggest that right now.  The Browns haven't proven anything.  They haven't won anything together.  If you believe they will, you are entitled to that.  No doubt Browns have a lot of talent.  But they should not be considered one of those "winning" teams yet.  Not until they actually... win.

And this is where the Browns being over-hyped and overrated comes in.  They have not proven anything yet for you, or anyone, to be acting like they are unequivocally better than the Panthers or any other team that isn't a consistent bottom-feeder.  Again, if you think they will be, alright fine.  But you are acting like it's completely unreasonable/improbable for a player to think that he has a better chance of winning with a team with a former MVP at QB and a team that has actually proven they can win together.  It is entirely possible the Panthers are better than the Browns this year.  Panthers are a damn good football team who only missed the playoffs last year because Cam got hurt.  

Again, you ignored the fact that Cam is coming off his shoulder injury. Is this irrelevant?  The Panthers have question marks too. Cam hasn't proved he has recovered from his surgery....

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on a couple things. I think they have demonstrated the mentality that they can win and you don't. Fine. I've stated my points and I don't need to rehash them. However, the Browns roster clearly favors McCoy for his future success. It fits better, and you will have to concede on that point. Even if you don't think the Browns are better competitors, you have to admit that the road to the Superbowl is easier through the AFC. If Brady drops off in the next year or two, the AFC competition won't compare to the dog fight in the NFC and it increases the chances that the Browns go further. Not to mention Browns schedule is easier than the Panthers as well.

Edited by Here'sJim

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1 hour ago, candyman93 said:

Well hell, I just looked up Mccafreys stats. How is he better than Kareem Hunt?

Great white hope 

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It isn't just Browns fans who are hyped on the Browns before they sigedn OBJ I think they were like 25-1 SB odds. Now they are 14-1 but even before that they were looked at as a better betting option than the 50-1 Panthers or 40-1 Ravens.

Also I doubt there are many GMs who would take Cam over Baker. Baker doesn't have a large enough resume to be placed above Cam imo but all signs point to him being the better QB soon if he isn't already.

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