NBA Summer League 2019

[MookieMonstah]

Just now, NYRaider said:

How so? He'll still be deferring to Kemba Walker as the #2 option like he has done with Kyrie the past two seasons. 

No Horford. Third year and he’ll be the legit #2 or #1, I think Kemba isn’t a super ball dominant dude like Kyrie but we’ll see. Last year was a crap show, I’m not going to hold that against Tatum. If he’s still only putting up 15 a game and not creating for others this season my tune will change on him.

[resilient part 2]

4 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

Provide examples if they are so readily available then.

Jayson Tatum has tools, yes. He does not have the tools to be a top 10 player in the NBA.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/baseline-will-jayson-tatum-become-top-10-player-nba

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/can-jayson-tatum-become-top-5-player-nba

I can't copy all the comments "heard" from former NBA players during live broadcasts, but they almost all say it.

[resilient part 2]

4 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

He’s a good enough athlete, absolutely. Curry isn’t an elite athlete. How many players go ISO more than once or twice a game? Harden might be the only one, kind of a stupid point. He can learn to be more of a creater like many young players do. His size and length are just fine. Harden hovered around 12 in AST%. No reason Tatum can’t increase that to 15-20% actually being a top 2 option on the Celtics.

http://tradevalue.theringer.com/

Heres an article from the trade deadline. Has Tatum as one of the best assets in the league and has his ceiling as First Team All NBA. The consensus with GMs around the league is a MUCH higher opinion on Tatum than dudes on this message board.

Check back in after this next season. It’ll be his true test.

and with this comment I am out of here. keep it going bro,, you got this.

[Ozzy]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

The first one Grant Williams is bear hugging him and he uses a swim move to detach. The second one he actually takes a hard swipe at the ball, blocks the shot, and fouls him in the process. The NBA is beyond soft now.

Is the NBA soft yeah, but you defending this guy?  Clear Dukie you are then because Allen is a dirty player, like they said in the game if he was a tough guy during the game all the time that is one thing.  But he does cheap shots and is trying to be sneaky with it, he just acts tough when he gets hurt or does not like something that is happening on the court.  If he was tough throughout it would not be as big of an issue.  But he is not a in the paint or physical type player, he plays on the outside and getting hit does not always require you to fight back.  

 

 

 

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

The Celtics continuously draft average role players and they have too many pieces that don't fit. Danny Ainge stockpiles picks, defends them with his life, just to use them on end of rotation players. Hell we've seen them have to cut mid-first round picks recently because they simply don't have the room on their roster. Didn't he draft like 5 or 6 players in 1 class recently? 

Very true but how did they get KG and Ray Allen to win an NBA title?  They traded value and they traded a variety of young decent talent to get them.  Sure in the end those players were not amazing but they were talented and had ability, Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Jeff Green, Telfair, Ryan Gomes, Delonte West etc.  Without that collection of talent they do not get KG or Ray Allen and they do not win a title so he did something at least that was successful.  He collects talent, sure they do not end up as NBA Hall of Famers but he can collect talent and currently he has arguably one of if not the best roster in Summer league currently.  Terry Rozier could breakout this year on the Hornets, Tatum is an All Star level player and so is Jaylen Brown.  And Marcus Smart is one of the toughest players in the NBA and Avery Bradley was a damn good defender also and was great on the Celtics.  Will be interesting how these young guys play into next years roster, my guess is they will be way better than they were last season.  

[Mox]

21 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

He’s a good enough athlete, absolutely. Curry isn’t an elite athlete. How many players go ISO more than once or twice a game? Harden might be the only one, kind of a stupid point. He can learn to be more of a creater like many young players do. His size and length are just fine. Harden hovered around 12 in AST%. No reason Tatum can’t increase that to 15-20% actually being a top 2 option on the Celtics.

http://tradevalue.theringer.com/

Heres an article from the trade deadline. Has Tatum as one of the best assets in the league and has his ceiling as First Team All NBA. The consensus with GMs around the league is a MUCH higher opinion on Tatum than dudes on this message board.

Check back in after this next season. It’ll be his true test.

So you reference Bill Simmons and his team as evidence a Celtics player is amazing?

You didn't answer my question. How many top 10 players don't fit any of those categories?

LeBron, Curry, Harden, Jokic, Giannis, Butler can all create for others. Others are iffy (Durant/George/Westbrook, etc.). Why is this important? The best players in the league know when to score and when to get others involved. If you can't get others involved you're severely limiting the ceiling of your team as a #1 option.

Add Durant, and Kawhi are all elite isolation scorers. Why is this important? At the end of the game if you're a top guy you need to be able to go get a bucket when your team needs one. If you can't be relied upon to do that you likely won't be able to come on top during tough games down the stretch.

Westbrook and George are elite athletes. Why is this important? Sometimes being physically superior to everyone else is enough to be great if you have the right mindset.

Davis and Embiid have elite size and length. Why is this important? Sometimes being physically superior to everyone else is enough to be great if you have the right mindset.

That's roughly the top 12 players in the NBA and they all fall into at least one of those categories. Jayson Tatum fits none of them.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Bullet Club

[NYRaider]

11 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

No Horford. Third year and he’ll be the legit #2 or #1, I think Kemba isn’t a super ball dominant dude like Kyrie but we’ll see. Last year was a crap show, I’m not going to hold that against Tatum. If he’s still only putting up 15 a game and not creating for others this season my tune will change on him.

Kemba Walker had a higher USG% than Kyrie last year though. 

[Mox]

18 minutes ago, resilient part 2 said:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/baseline-will-jayson-tatum-become-top-10-player-nba

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/can-jayson-tatum-become-top-5-player-nba

I can't copy all the comments "heard" from former NBA players during live broadcasts, but they almost all say it.

You literally just linked Boston Sports people asking if a Boston Sports guy has a top 10 ceiling. Real credible.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Bullet Club

[Ozzy]

18 minutes ago, resilient part 2 said:

Tacko article https://nesn.com/2019/07/nba-scout-gives-perspective-on-tacko-falls-situation-with-celtics/

One NBA scout agrees, telling Steve Bulpett of the Boston Herald how great the risk-reward scenario really is. “I’m still stunned that no one even spent a late second round pick on this guy,” the scout told Bulpett. “The risk-reward upside is phenomenal.”


 

I like him no doubt but one has to really question can he keep up night in and night out.  Can he run up and down that much and not physically fall apart.  He did miss some time in college because of injury.  If it was 1995 he would make any roster in the NBA because centers were needed.  When freaking Al Horford plays center at 6-7 or 6-8 yeah not a huge need for 7-7 centers who can defend.  

Would love to see Fall practice a hook shot but no one shoots that in the NBA.  Would be nice to see a big man with a post game who has some moves, but arguably the only big with good solid post moves is Embid and Sabonis.  The rest just run the court, get three point shots from time to time and put back rebounds. Heck could also argue Domantas Sabonis is one of the few players also in the NBA who can score in the post with his back to the basket consistently as a big.  That is why Fall is not super valuable because defensively not many centers play that way anymore.  They are out on the perimeter making plays like Anthony Davis who is more a PF to me, Jokic also is a perimeter passing big not a ton of back to the basket stuff with him.

 

[NYRaider]

9 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Is the NBA soft yeah, but you defending this guy?  Clear Dukie you are then because Allen is a dirty player, like they said in the game if he was a tough guy during the game all the time that is one thing.  But he does cheap shots and is trying to be sneaky with it, he just acts tough when he gets hurt or does not like something that is happening on the court.  If he was tough throughout it would not be as big of an issue.  But he is not a in the paint or physical type player, he plays on the outside and getting hit does not always require you to fight back.  

2

But Grant Williams is allowed to bear hug him on a "screen"? He literally threw Grant off of him on the first play and took a legit swipe at the ball on the second play. 

[MookieMonstah]

5 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

So you reference Bill Simmons and his team as evidence a Celtics player is amazing?

You didn't answer my question. How many top 10 players don't fit any of those categories?

LeBron, Curry, Harden, Jokic, Giannis, Butler can all create for others. Others are iffy. Why is this important? The best players in the league know when to score and when to get others involved. If you can't get others involved you're severely limiting the ceiling of your team as a #1 option.

Add Durant, and Kawhi are all elite isolation scorers. Why is this important? At the end of the game if you're a top guy you need to be able to go get a bucket when your team needs one. If you can't be relied upon to do that you likely won't be able to come on top during tough games down the stretch.

Westbrook and George are elite athletes. Why is this important? Sometimes being physically superior to everyone else is enough to be great if you have the right mindset.

Davis and Embiid have elite size and length. Why is this important? Sometimes being physically superior to everyone else is enough to be great if you have the right mindset.

That's roughly the top 12 players in the NBA and they all fall into at least one of those categories. Jayson Tatum fits none of them.

 

 

Tatum was great from ISO in his rookie year, he was bad last year. Let’s see where he actually falls moving forward. With his athleticism and versatile offensive game I’d say he’s absolutely going to be a good ISO scorer. Jayson Tatum has good size and length, he’s a good athlete, he has a great offensive game.

Again, this upcoming season is his first test. Hit me up after this season. If he doesn’t improve my tune will change completely. 

[MookieMonstah]

6 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Kemba Walker had a higher USG% than Kyrie last year though. 

As the lone option on a bad team.

[NYRaider]

15 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Terry Rozier could breakout this year on the Hornets, Tatum is an All Star level player and so is Jaylen Brown.  And Marcus Smart is one of the toughest players in the NBA and Avery Bradley was a damn good defender also and was great on the Celtics.  Will be interesting how these young guys play into next years roster, my guess is they will be way better than they were last season.  

3

Any player could "breakout" this year. And Tatum/Brown are not All-Star level players, to be an All-Star level guy that means you're one of the top 25 players in the NBA. Marcus Smart is trash and so are most of the other picks Ainge has made recently. 

[NYRaider]

Just now, MookieMonstah said:

As the lone option on a bad team.

Same thing for Kyrie last year. 

[Mox]

Just now, MookieMonstah said:

Tatum was great from ISO in his rookie year, he was bad last year. Let’s see where he actually falls moving forward. With his athleticism and versatile offensive game I’d say he’s absolutely going to be a good ISO scorer. Jayson Tatum has good size and length, he’s a good athlete, he has a great offensive game.

Again, this upcoming season is his first test. Hit me up after this season. If he doesn’t improve my tune will change completely. 

I don't deny this. That's not enough to be elite though. That's the my point. You need one of the four things I mentioned. Good tools aren't enough if you don't have the first two, you need elite tools. That's my point. I expect him to do well this year. He's a good player. He'll likely be great. I don't envision a scenario where he becomes elite.

[Ozzy]

8 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

But Grant Williams is allowed to bear hug him on a "screen"? He literally threw Grant off of him on the first play and took a legit swipe at the ball on the second play. 

Grant Williams is tough and physical, Grayson Allen is not and did not like the physical play.  So you want to talk about the NBA being soft, which it is compared to 20 years ago no question.  Well Allen is the soft one if that little contact got him upset that much, and his track list of dirty plays is longer than probably any player in recent memory.  He has no leg to stand on in terms of who is the dirty player, which is oddly what he wants out of his opponents based on his soccer kicks at their legs.

 

 

7 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Any player could "breakout" this year. And Tatum/Brown are not All-Star level players, to be an All-Star level guy that means you're one of the top 25 players in the NBA. Marcus Smart is trash and so are most of the other picks Ainge has made recently. 

How much money you want to bet on Tatum or Brown never becoming an All Star in the NBA?  Tatum will be in his 3rd year, Brown his 4th and you already want to write off their career as never being an All Star game over the up coming 10-14 years?

 

Yeah Ainge is not a great GM but again assets are useful and he used them to get a NBA title and really should have won 2 of them if not 3 with KG and company.  Would be a different argument if he would have never brought a title to Boston but he did so it gives him credibility.