Mind Character Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: @Mind Character @MSURacerDT55 @pnies20 who are some box safeties we could be looking at in R2-4? Man .... I've searched high and low for Strong Safety's/Box-Safety Playmakers in the 2020 Class.... Unfortunately, saying that this class is true buttcheeks would actually be kind. It hurts to watch so many players just be JAGs or even below that. Most of the guys can't help the Browns ever and that's not me being a tough evaluator. We're going to have to get a SS via free agency or trade most likely as Derrick Kindred coming into the draft dwarfs the abilities of the vast majority of the class. I honestly think Grant Delpit is a mid-2nd round prospect, but as not many else do I won't include him. As a result, I honestly don't see any SSs of value until the 3rd or 4th round. I also see Xavier Mckinney as a physical Free Safety so I'll leave him off the list as well. The 2 that I Believe In -- Developmental High Quality Starter Upside: 1.) Jalen Elliott, SS Notre Dame (3rd-5th Round) 2.) Antoine Winfield Jr., FS/SS Minnesota (3rd-5th Round) The 4 that I Want to Believe In -- Developmental Quality Starter Upside: 3.) Kyle Dugger, SS Lenoir-Rhyne (3rd-6th Round) 4.) Antoine Brooks Jr., SS Maryland (4th-6th) ** 5.) Patrick Nelson, SS SMU (5th-7th; ** Will be DePo's guy; had 15+ TFLs and 12.5 Sacks his final year; unbelievable heart but alligator arms and lacks athleticism to bet on being a major factor in the pros) 6.) Jeremy Chinn, SS Southern Illinois The 4 that are Meh But Flash a Lot on Film -- Quality Contributor with Some Long-Term Developmental Starter Upside: 7.) Greg Eisworth, SS Iowa State (6th-UDFA) 8.) Javon Hagan, SS Ohio (6th-UDFA) 9.) Jovante Moffatt, SS Middle Tennessee State (6th-UDFA) 10.) Javin White, SS UNLV (6th-UDFA) Honarable mention: Khaleke Hudson, SS/LB Michigan (7th-UDFA; Looks slow on film at LB, but he's so instinctual and competitive fire; He could run a really bad time; his speed is so hard to judge on film; if he can test well and move well in agility drills he's worth UDFA spot at least) Edited January 13, 2020 by Mind Character Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, DaWg_LB. said: I can dig it, my top OT's coming out are 1. Andrew Thomas, LT Georgia 2. Tristan Wirfs, OT Iowa 3. Jedrick Wills Jr., OT Alabama 4. Mekhi Becton, OT Louisville 5. Trey Adams RT Washington 6. Matt Peart RT Ucon 7. Austin Jackson, LT SoCal 8. Prince Tega-Wanogho, LT Auburn 9. Charlie Heck OT UNC 10. Alex Taylor OT USC (Former Basketball Player for the Gamecocks....) I see your pretty high on Netane Muti also.....I like the kid also, but do you think he has the length to play OT? This kid is BARELY 6'3? I love him as OG/C....and he has some injury history.....I dont think this kid will be able to handle the edge in the NFL.... Heck has the intuitive feel to just get guys blocked. He's my 17th ranked tackle. Height of an Tackle doesn't matter as much as Arm length and Playing with length to me. Shorter height, with longer arms, hand strength, lower center of gravity, and technique are optimal. It's just taller human beings typically have longer arms, wingspans, and reach. From the tape, Muti's arms don't appear to be all that long, but they aren't short guard arms either. In the games where Muti was a Left Tackle, he played with Length knowing instinctively how to keep rushers of all varieties on the outside. Imo, his best position will be as a Center, but I believe in what I've seen him put on film at various positions that I think he'll be a pro-bowl Left Tackle and Left Guard as well. Much like Wirfs who I see as an All-Pro Guard but a High Quality Tackle, I see Muti as an All-Pro Center/Guard but a High Quality Tackle. Balance, combat balance, feel of when to strike, his anchor, instinctually playing with length, knowing how to use the length he does possess, hand strength, etc... those are the qualities that lead me to believe that he can plug and play at LT and be one of the best tackles in the draft. Edited January 13, 2020 by Mind Character 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 IMO Free Agency is where you find plugs to the biggest holes you have on your roster. The draft is where you take BPA, with the caveat that the tie on BPA boards goes to the player that fits the biggest need. There are also some "veto aspects" to BPA. For example, if you have your franchise QB and one is sitting there, you obviously don't draft him. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 minute ago, MWil23 said: IMO Free Agency is where you find plugs to the biggest holes you have on your roster. The draft is where you take BPA, with the caveat that the tie on BPA boards goes to the player that fits the biggest need. There are also some "veto aspects" to BPA. For example, if you have your franchise QB and one is sitting there, you obviously don't draft him. I agree. Ideally you don’t go into the draft looking to find multiple starters out of need, but rather talented guys who may start if they show they’re able to. I do think that as of now one of the tackle spots is going to be a rookie as there just aren’t that many quality tackles in FA. Wouldn’t shock me to see a Lb and a S as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 Another bit of info I got from one of my sauces. Figured I’d share it as I thought it was good info. This offense tackle class is phenomenal. The top 3 guys are legit pro bowl quality talents. At the start of the process I saw Tristin Wirfs as a guard, an elite level guard but guard. After more and more watching I believe he has all the tools and mentality to be a pro bowler any where on the line. He has a nasty demeanor and violent hips. Plays with a great center of balance and quick feet. Jedrick Wills is does not have the killer instinct that Wirfs has but he has the power and hips to get the same type of movement. He does have quicker and lighter feet. Had a tendency to get lazy and take plays off in some of Alabama's blow outs which might be a window into the type of mentality he has. Will he work through adversity? Will he grind it out. Is he mentally tough enough for the NFL? Could be nothing really but it at least has to make you ask those questions. Andrew Thomas is basically Joe Thomas if you took away some of Joe Thomas pass protection ability and attributed it to his run blocking ability. Andrew has very impressive smooth feet and floats pretty easy matching speed rushers. Good punch and ability to redirect against counters. What little he lacks as a pass rusher in comparison to Joe he makes up for as a run blocker. He is nothing special and will never dominant in that aspect but he is good enough. I also love Robert Hunt from Louisiana. Very aggressive guy who wants to hurt you. I think he can succeed in the NFL in the right offense at RT but he may also have to kick inside to guard but if you view him as a guard I would rate him OG1 IMO. Just started watching Mekhi Becton from Louisiville but first impression is HELL FREAKING YES! Top 20 talent for sure. Could move up to compete with the other 3 after more games. Late rounder I like a lot and want to see how he does in the Shrine game is Cameron Clark from Charlotte. This is the best OT class we have seen in ages IMO. If there was ever a year to need an OT we sure as F picked the right one. I am going to say best class since 1997. You could argue 2002 and 2010 but man I have not dount these Top 3 will be very good pros and Becton might push the group over the top. Isaiah Simmons Freakishly athletic for his size. Very big frame whether if be for a LB or Safety. Not an in the box LB because he is not comfortable playing the run game down hill. He is a sure tackler and will make the stop but will not go attack it. Excellent burst and side line to side line pursuit but he is slow to process. Has excellent range for zone coverage but is herky jerky and gets off balance easy in man coverage. His ball skills are absolutely atrocious even by LB standards. Very awkward catcher. I was 100% shocked he did not drop that INT against Ohio State. Excellent chase and tackle defender. At his absolute best when he is blitzing. He can blitz from the inside or out. When he is asked to blitz his freakish athletic ability take over. He would obviously take some development to be highly successful at the NFL level but I honestly believe his best position would be as a 34 OLB. I can also see him succeeding in a Kam Chancellor SS role as long as you can avoid getting him into man to man situations and are not counting on many interceptions. I wouldn't mind him in the 1st round but I would hope it would be in a trade back to the 18-25 range. The top of this class is absolutely loaded with game changers IMO. In a normal draft I would say Simmons could be a 12-16 pick but this class has the potential to be elite. Okudah is a shut down CB, Derrick Brown is an elite DT, The Top 3 OTs are studs, Henry Ruggs is underrated as a prospect IMO because he has true game breaking football speed. He's on a different level. Joe Burrows is the best QB prospect in a long time. I would take him over Trevor Lawrence if they were both in the draft. Another underrated guy who is still rated highly just not high enough is K'Lavon Chaisson. I think he has franchise changing type ability. He is a Top 15 player I would take him over Simmons. He plays more aggressive. He is far more physical and diagnoses the game faster. Tua Tags is worth the risk on injury in the Top 15 as well. Obviously not for us but he will push some of this elite talent down the board. We are sitting good at 10. This would be a good year to trade back a little to the 12-15 range and one of these guys will land in our laps. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I agree. Ideally you don’t go into the draft looking to find multiple starters out of need, but rather talented guys who may start if they show they’re able to. I do think that as of now one of the tackle spots is going to be a rookie as there just aren’t that many quality tackles in FA. Wouldn’t shock me to see a Lb and a S as well. Personally, I'd love something like: Free Agency: Re-sign Randall to a 1 year "prove it" deal. If not, let him walk. Sign Vonn Bell, S New Orleans Sign replacement/average starting RG Sign replacement/average starting SLB Sign replacement/average starting OT, hopefully RT Draft: 1st: BPA, probably an OT 2nd: With such a LOADED WR class, I think we could get Top 20 value at #42 here. I'd like a tall/big bodied outside type that will instantly be a credible REDZONE threat like Higgins from Clemson or the Jefferson kid from LSU. If not, I'd happily get another kid with upside like Cephus from Wisconsin or DPJ from UM in the 3rd/later and then get someone else here in the 2nd 3rd-7th: BPA, hopefully loading up in the trenches on BOTH SIDES of the football 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Personally, I'd love something like: Free Agency: Re-sign Randall to a 1 year "prove it" deal. If not, let him walk. Agreed. I can’t imagine the market being amazing for him, but I’ve been wrong before. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Sign Vonn Bell, S New Orleans He’d be nice. Plus OSU so we can be homers. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Sign replacement/average starting RG I’m actually cool at RG with Teller and Forbes unless they love a dude R2-4. Gotta find a cheap starter somewhere along that OL. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Sign replacement/average starting SLB Agreed, we need a dude who can start. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Sign replacement/average starting OT, hopefully RT I’m gunning for Conklin tbh. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: Draft: 1st: BPA, probably an OT Yep. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: 2nd: With such a LOADED WR class, I think we could get Top 20 value at #42 here. I'd like a tall/big bodied outside type that will instantly be a credible REDZONE threat like Higgins from Clemson or the Jefferson kid from LSU. If not, I'd happily get another kid with upside like Cephus from Wisconsin or DPJ from UM in the 3rd/later and then get someone else here in the 2nd If they’re BPA I won’t complain, but I’d hope we could get a similarly graded prospect at S, LB, DE or even IOL. 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: 3rd-7th: BPA, hopefully loading up in the trenches on BOTH SIDES of the football Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Agreed. I can’t imagine the market being amazing for him, but I’ve been wrong before. That's why I think it makes sense for both sides, but again, we've been wrong here before. 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: He’d be nice. Plus OSU so we can be homers. That's obviously why I want him. The fact that he's a solid NFL starter is just icing on the cake. 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I’m actually cool at RG with Teller and Forbes unless they love a dude R2-4. Gotta find a cheap starter somewhere along that OL. If Forbes is the guy, great. I'm not super high on Teller, but to be fair to him, it's not like Hubbard was a cornerstone beside him. 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Agreed, we need a dude who can start. I don't think that we have an SLB on our current roster, and I think Mack Wilson can be solid as a WLB...he's not an SLB IMO. 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I’m gunning for Conklin tbh. I'd like that just fine. He's not the same since his injury, but he's still pretty good. 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Yep. If they don't go OT here I'd be shocked and they'll great raked through the coals here. 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: If they’re BPA I won’t complain, but I’d hope we could get a similarly graded prospect at S, LB, DE or even IOL. No doubt. I'd prefer the 3rd/4th round guy in Cephus/DPJ, but I just don't see this as a great Safety class. That said, I'd love Winfield in Round 2-3. Sure tackler, highly productive All American who may not have elite athleticism. Good bloodlines. As for the rest, I'd prefer a DE/LB here too. 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Yes. To add to this, a TE here would also be really nice, and often some gems can be found in Rounds 2-3 (Gronk, Kelce, Witten, Andrews, just to name a few). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, MWil23 said: If Forbes is the guy, great. I'm not super high on Teller, but to be fair to him, it's not like Hubbard was a cornerstone beside him. Yeah I don’t think he’s a stud or anything, but perhaps serviceable for a year with a guy like Conklin next to him. 9 minutes ago, MWil23 said: I don't think that we have an SLB on our current roster, and I think Mack Wilson can be solid as a WLB...he's not an SLB IMO. Yep. Simmons at 10 would fix that imo. 9 minutes ago, MWil23 said: I'd like that just fine. He's not the same since his injury, but he's still pretty good. He’s just a year removed, correct? May see a better version in 2020. 9 minutes ago, MWil23 said: If they don't go OT here I'd be shocked and they'll great raked through the coals here. Most likely. I think they could wait until day 2 if the top 3 are gone, but it needs to be addressed early. 9 minutes ago, MWil23 said: No doubt. I'd prefer the 3rd/4th round guy in Cephus/DPJ, but I just don't see this as a great Safety class. That said, I'd love Winfield in Round 2-3. Sure tackler, highly productive All American who may not have elite athleticism. Good bloodlines. As for the rest, I'd prefer a DE/LB here too. Don’t forget the OSU connection with pops. That can’t be undersold here. 9 minutes ago, MWil23 said: To add to this, a TE here would also be really nice, and often some gems can be found in Rounds 2-3 (Gronk, Kelce, Witten, Andrews, just to name a few). I’d love one too, but from what I’ve read this ain’t the class for a TE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Yeah I don’t think he’s a stud or anything, but perhaps serviceable for a year with a guy like Conklin next to him. I'm fine with an average guy at my RG spot for a year or two. If either of them is that, great. 27 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Yep. Simmons at 10 would fix that imo. I LOVE Simmons and we've already had that discussion as well. He'd do a LOT for this defense. Unfortunately, I think that OT we can't afford to pass on if we can get a solid starter there for the next 5-10 years. 27 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: He’s just a year removed, correct? May see a better version in 2020. That's from the ACL injury from 2018. He then was concussed until Week 11 this year, suffered another knee injury Week 14, and was placed on IR. Some would point to this: https://titansized.com/2019/05/01/why-the-titans-declined-jack-conklins-option/ Quote The injury slowed his return in 2018, and he didn’t see game action until game 4. He was not quite the player Titans fans had seen over the previous two years. It appeared he had lost a step – whether it was a result of rushing back from injury too soon or he difficulties adjusting to the new (non-exotic smashmouth) offense remains to be seen. His PFF grade of 66.8 wasn’t terrible, but there has been a steady decline in his scores over the past 3 seasons (80.6 in 2016 and 71.9 in 2017). If you like Conklin, you believe that his decline is based upon rushing back from an injury. If you don't, you believe that those injuries have long term effect(s) on his career and that he'll never be the same. Regardless, I'm willing to take that chance. 27 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Most likely. I think they could wait until day 2 if the top 3 are gone, but it needs to be addressed early. If the Top 3 are gone, they should absolutely wait...no sense in reaching that far. That's how teams really get themselves into trouble. 27 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Don’t forget the OSU connection with pops. That can’t be undersold here. LOCK HIM IN!!!!!! 27 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I’d love one too, but from what I’ve read this ain’t the class for a TE. There's a kid from ND that looks pretty good that some are high on. His frame is pretty slender, but I'm all for rolling the dice on upside Round 3 and later in many cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: At the start of the process I saw Tristin Wirfs as a guard, an elite level guard but guard. After more and more watching I believe he has all the tools and mentality to be a pro bowler any where on the line. He has a nasty demeanor and violent hips. Plays with a great center of balance and quick feet. Jedrick Wills is does not have the killer instinct that Wirfs has but he has the power and hips to get the same type of movement. He does have quicker and lighter feet. Had a tendency to get lazy and take plays off in some of Alabama's blow outs which might be a window into the type of mentality he has. Will he work through adversity? Will he grind it out. Is he mentally tough enough for the NFL? Could be nothing really but it at least has to make you ask those questions. Andrew Thomas is basically Joe Thomas if you took away some of Joe Thomas pass protection ability and attributed it to his run blocking ability. Andrew has very impressive smooth feet and floats pretty easy matching speed rushers. Good punch and ability to redirect against counters. What little he lacks as a pass rusher in comparison to Joe he makes up for as a run blocker. He is nothing special and will never dominant in that aspect but he is good enough. Wirfs is awesome. He's nasty and has the athletic traits to play LT if need be. He's going to be special. I don't think Wills has better movement skills than Wirfs. I think he has better technique, but Wirfs is a better athlete IMO. Wirfs is a superb athlete methinks. Andrew Thomas is nowhere near the technician that Joe Thomas was. He can mirror speed like no other and has quick feet, but he lunges at people far too often for my liking. It's an easily fixable trait and it's not something overly damning, but Joe was pretty much perfect technically coming out. He's a great neutralizer for speed rushers, but I think he'll have a bit of trouble moving these big-bodied NFL players around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, MWil23 said: There's a kid from ND that looks pretty good that some are high on. His frame is pretty slender, but I'm all for rolling the dice on upside Round 3 and later in many cases. He can't block or I'd be all for it. We need a TE that can play in-line and help seal an edge. Right now, that's the one area we lack offensively from our skill players. A fullback would help too, IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zelbell Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 The last thing we need to do is trade for a TE but I’d love to have OJ Howard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said: He can't block or I'd be all for it. We need a TE that can play in-line and help seal an edge. Right now, that's the one area we lack offensively from our skill players. A fullback would help too, IMO. This is what I’m looking for. I want a 6’6 270 lb Steve Heiden clone at TE. Add to that a 5’11 255lb walking muscle with no neck to block for Chubb, Hunt and Baker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: This is what I’m looking for. I want a 6’6 270 lb Steve Heiden clone at TE. Add to that a 5’11 255lb walking muscle with no neck to block for Chubb, Hunt and Baker. 3rd: Colby Parkinson/TE/Stanford 7th: Brady Ross/FB/Iowa Parkinson isn't 270, but he's 250ish at 6'7 with room to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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