SkippyX Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 A 49ers - Patriots Super Bowl might make last year's 13-3 look like a shootout. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Darnold didn't look nearly this bad against a pretty good Cowboys defense. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMossIsBoss Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Starless said: Darnold didn't look nearly this bad against a pretty good Cowboys defense. Just sayin'. Cowboys D is still TBD. They looked really good last night, fast and aggressive, but their season as a whole paints a different picture. Could have been inept offense on Eagles part? I think the Pats competition has been LOUSY and they have benefited immensely from it in terms of these historically good numbers... but they still look like the best D I've seen in recent memory. These are still pro teams (except the Dolphins) they are completely dismantling. Edited October 22, 2019 by RandyMossIsBoss 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolts223 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) On 10/16/2019 at 12:40 PM, SkippyX said: FYI - The teams the Patriots played went 3-1 last week. The Bills are 4-1 on their way to 11-5 The Jets are 1-4 on their way to 7-9 The Steelers are 2-4 on their way to 8-8 All of these teams play each other a bunch so that's a bunch of 1-1s thrown into the future schedule. So some people are saying that because the Dolphins, Giants and DC are bad that means the Patriots defense is not good. At the end of the year the Patriots schedule is going to look like a decent 13 game schedule with the pathetic Dolphins and DC thrown in there 3 times to make 16 games. Good Teams (7) - 6 or 7 of these make the playoffs Eagles Cowboys Bills x2 Chiefs Texans Ravens Mediocre Teams (4) Steelers with Ben Jets with Darnold Browns (inconsistent but mediocre) Bengals with AJ Green (TBD for sure) Bad teams (2) Giants with lots of injuries Jets without Darnold Jokes (3) DC Miami x2 Everyone is just having a hissy fit because they got Miami and DC early, Darnold got mono, and Pittsburgh lost a couple close games to Seattle and Baltimore. I'm sorta confused what we are trying to even argue here. I don't think anyone thinks that this Pats team isn't a great team that is capable of winning a SB. And if anyone actually does think that then they have just been in a coma the last 20 years. But are we trying to argue if this defense or overall team is historic? It's TBD. I don't think any team they've played so far besides the Bills is actually a good team, and the Bills nearly beat them. Edited October 22, 2019 by Bolts223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/16/2019 at 2:40 PM, SkippyX said: FYI - The teams the Patriots played went 3-1 last week. The Bills are 4-1 on their way to 11-5 The Jets are 1-4 on their way to 7-9 The Steelers are 2-4 on their way to 8-8 All of these teams play each other a bunch so that's a bunch of 1-1s thrown into the future schedule. So some people are saying that because the Dolphins, Giants and DC are bad that means the Patriots defense is not good. At the end of the year the Patriots schedule is going to look like a decent 13 game schedule with the pathetic Dolphins and DC thrown in there 3 times to make 16 games. Good Teams (7) - 6 or 7 of these make the playoffs Eagles Cowboys Bills x2 Chiefs Texans Ravens Mediocre Teams (4) Steelers with Ben Jets with Darnold Browns (inconsistent but mediocre) Bengals with AJ Green (TBD for sure) Bad teams (2) Giants with lots of injuries Jets without Darnold Jokes (3) DC Miami x2 Everyone is just having a hissy fit because they got Miami and DC early, Darnold got mono, and Pittsburgh lost a couple close games to Seattle and Baltimore. I don't think anyone has argued that the Pats schedule over the course of the season doesn't include some legitimate teams, just that their schedule so far has been disproportionately easy. Even if we take your rankings at face value, they've played one good team so far, and five bad ones. And for the defense in particular, the Bills are a good overall team but a bad offense, so arguably 6 bad offenses. And I would even lower the Jets both with and without Darnold by a tier, personally. Things spike up in terms of difficulty tremendously over the course of the next 6 weeks, and that's when we can really evaluate how great this Pats team and it's defense is. Because I also don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't good, simply that it may not be all-time great as it appears statistically, and as some are already arguing it is. There were similar issues back in 2005 with the Colts defense. They allowed like 29 points over the first 5 games, both touchdowns they gave up came late in garbage time, while the defense scored two touchdowns of their own, and some were throwing around some pretty fantastic claims. And then over time they leveled out. Still were 2nd in the league in scoring defense that year, only because the Bears were also nuts that year, but they came down to earth in the sense of being great in a statistically standard way as opposed to an all-time way. The difference between allowing 6 points per game and ending up at 15 points per game. And I think that's what we have to wait to see if it happens with the Pats. I've never seen anyone on here claim they aren't a good defense. Just that they probably aren't actually 8 points per game allowed good. So yeah, people are responding to the fact that they got a crazy easy schedule to start the year. Because it does impact how you evaluate the performance. It's hard to know what to make of a team allowing historically low numbers, but with a historically bad SoS. It's not easy to separate those facts figure out how much each part plays a factor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Absolutely nobody was expecting this level of dominance by our defense, easy schedule or not. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Bolts223 said: I'm sorta confused what we are trying to even argue here. I don't think anyone thinks that this Pats team isn't a great team that is capable of winning a SB. And if anyone actually does think that then they have just been in a coma the last 20 years. But are we trying to argue if this defense or overall team is historic? It's TBD. I don't think any team they've played so far besides the Bills is actually a good team, and the Bills nearly beat them. The point is that myopic people are looking for lame reasons to not recognize greatness. The Jags put up 36 on the 2000 Ravens The Dolphins put up 38 and Tampa put up 28 on the 1985 Bears The Browns, Cardinals, and DC put up 30, 26, and 23 against the 1991 Eagles. The 2002 Bucs gave up 20+ points 5 times in 16 games. These are all historically great defenses. Are there people who are expecting Philly or Dallas to score 38 on the Patriots? Anyone think the Texans scoring 10 against Carolina and 13 against Jacksonville means they just show up and put 30+ on New England? Do you think if their D averages 5 points per game allowed over 15 games and gives up 31 to KC they are no longer a historically great defense? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (directed to others) The point is also that lots of people don't understand the basic concept of comparative performance based rankings. (how you do at a challenge vs others) If the Steelers get 20+ per game when not playing the Patriots and then 3 when playing the Patriots... If the Jets beat the Cowboys with 24 points and then get shut out the next week by the Patriots... If the Dolphins put up 21 on the Bills but scored ZERO against the Patriots and ONLY against the Patriots... The Patriots defense is now allowing a net 0.57 points per game 0.57 points per game allowed through 7 games is obviously historic Their Pass defense has allowed 1 TD to go along with 18 picks. Of course that is historic. Maybe a golf analogy will help. The Patriots D is 10 under after 5 par 3s and a couple par 4s (including 2 holes in one). The 49ers D is 5 under through 6 holes and the rest of the field is at even par or worse. The rabble is pretending the back 9 with its three par 5s and three par 4s will make them go 5 over par down the stretch. I'd suggest to the few who care about learning should read more Football Outsiders. (they will update the DVOA around 6:30 EST tomorrow for week 7 but you can look at week 6 now) Looking at the week 5 DVOA which also shows through 4 games for the 49ers you won't find the 2005 Colts on the list of the best Ds through 4 or 5 games from '86-now. You will find the Patriots as the best through 4 weeks, 5 weeks, and 6 weeks. (that's all adjusted for schedule) The greatness of this defense is not really a matter of opinion. You either recognize it or you are ignorant. Being ignorant about the Patriots has become a virtue to many though, so roll around in it if you like. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Let's not forget that the Patriots have also had one of the weakest schedules in the league so far. I'm not saying their defense isnt good I'm simply saying the offenses they've played have absolutely sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) Try these for perspective. The Ravens are #1 in points per game. They average 25.83 points per game without the Miami joke. The Steelers average 24 22.8 points per game when not playing New England and they had their healthy HoF QB vs New England. --- (EDIT: I missed the Bush TD and adjusted down for it) This is not just an average based on beating a weak team. The Steelers have scored 20+ in every game but one. EDIT - actually 17 + the Bush TD vs the Chargers so 17+ in every game but one and 20+ in 4 of those 5. The Jets averaged 20 points per game in 2 games with Darnold against the 5-1 Bills and the 4-3 Cowboys. Buffalo is 3rd in defensive points allowed and Dallas is 7th. They scored -2 against the Patriots D. (0 minus the safety) Edited October 22, 2019 by SkippyX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Just now, SkippyX said: Try these for perspective. The Ravens are #1 in points per game. They average 25.83 points per game without the Miami joke. The Steelers average 24 points per game when not playing New England and they had their healthy HoF QB vs New England. This is not just an average based on beating a weak team. The Steelers have scored 20+ in every game but one. The Jets averaged 20 points per game in 2 games with Darnold against the 5-1 Bills and the 4-3 Cowboys. Buffalo is 3rd in defensive points allowed and Dallas is 7th. They scored -2 against the Patriots D. (0 minus the safety) The Steelers offense is not good. They've played really good against 2 really crappy teams (Cincy/LAC). They played alright against Baltimore but that's a rivalry that is historically close. Their defense played well against SF. Offense...not so much. Those pts per game for Pittsburgh are skewed because of Defensive TDs. As for the bolded, I'm not convinced Ben was actually healthy but more importantly I'm not sure we are actually better with him on the field anymore. Lastly if you're seriously attempting to make a case for the Jets being a good team just stop They're not, they are possibly a top 3 worst team in the NFL right now. They've got some talent bit overall that team is a mess and Darnold is trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, wwhickok said: The Steelers offense is not good. They've played really good against 2 really crappy teams (Cincy/LAC). - I already explained that they got to 20+ against everyone (17 when scoring their only defensive TD of the year) They played alright against Baltimore but that's a rivalry that is historically close. Oh, the data does not fit so you make something up about rivalries enhancing offense... that's cute. Their defense played well against SF. Offense...not so much. 87 yard TD drive and a 49 yard TD drive. How is everyone else doing vs SF? Those pts per game for Pittsburgh are skewed because of Defensive TDs. one all season As for the bolded, I'm not convinced Ben was actually healthy but more importantly I'm not sure we are actually better with him on the field anymore. so your delusions should be considered... No Thanks Lastly if you're seriously attempting to make a case for the Jets being a good team just stop 20 points per game with Darnold to -2 vs the Patriots... anything else is a lie They're not, they are possibly a top 3 worst team in the NFL right now. They've got some talent bit overall that team is a mess and Darnold is trash. 3 points per game and 165 yards per game with Falk 20 points per game and 302.5 yards per game with Darnold (not counting the Patriots because we are judging the greatness of the Patriots) You have made your opinion abundantly clear and it is this: Edited October 22, 2019 by SkippyX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, SkippyX said: You have made your opinion abundantly clear and it is this: Terrible job trying to discredit my post. Yes we have 1 Defensive TD however, how many turnovers do we have that resulted in a short field possession that in some ways dramatically inflates scoring stats. I take it you haven't actually WATCHED a Steelers game other than against NE this year. Their offense is not that good right now. As for my comment about Baltimore, that's not making anything up, it's a known fact. The Jets record says they're not a good team. Scoring points against other bad teams doesn't make you a good team. When NE played Pittsburgh, we were not remotely a good team. There is a reason we started out 0-3. As for Ben's elbow. I dont know for sure that he wasnt healthy nor did I say I knew for sure. I do believe he wasn't but again, that wouldnt have mattered, Ben sucks vs. NE. You're using inflated stats of bad teams vs. Bad teams to suggest that NE has actually played more than one worthy opponent. They haven't its really that simple. Stop being a homer. I never said NE wasnt a good team. All I said is it's hard to truly define them thus far given their schedule. That isnt on them, they're playing the schedule they were given. But seriously the fact you cannot admit that they have had an extremely weak schedule is pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, wwhickok said: You're using inflated stats of bad teams vs. Bad teams to suggest that NE has actually played more than one worthy opponent. All he's done is show that teams that have scored circa 0 against NE have scored around 20 elsewhere so far......nothing inflated about that, it's called facts. Do you agree? 3 minutes ago, wwhickok said: They haven't its really that simple. Stop being a homer. He's not a Patriots fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VigilantZombie Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Furthermore, the combined opponents record this season is 6-26, 11-27 if you include Buffalo. (6-26 are the combined for the losing teams they've played) So far this season NE has played exactly 2 teams with more than 1 win. One of those two, only has 2 wins (Pitt) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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