This Aint Packers Talk v69

[MacReady]

Just now, CWood21 said:

The NBA became "broken" for me when these Super Teams formed.  I mean, the Miami Heat one wasn't good but the whole Durant joining the Warriors was really the last big straw for me.  When 90% of the high-end talent in the league is on 4-5 teams, you've already got a season that's pretty much expected.  I mean, how many people didn't think we'd have Houston and Golden State in the WFC and Cleveland and Boston in the ECF?  That shouldn't happen.  In a league that's star-driven, there isn't room for parity if only a few teams have the talent.

Yep, it's become a stupid league.  I'm just amazed at how often people seem to think the NBA is approaching NFL levels.  It needs to either simplify its stupid salary cap thing (I can't make heads or tails of how it even works), or it needs to delete at least 4 teams.  Even baseball has more parity than the NBA now it seems. 

 

[HyponGrey]

In fairness, the NBA sabotaged their talent pool. 

[pollino14]

The NBA is a joke. Their stupid ‘max contract’ deals rigs the system so much, and this is what they get. 

[Leader]

21 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You're a Lakers and Packers fan?

Yup and NY Yankee fan. Grew up in the New Jersey.

I think - dont remember exactly - that Mickey Mantle was my first sports hero. It was either him or Wilt - but probably Mantle. Unfortunate for me, I didnt realize he and the NYY existed until after their last WS appearance (and loss I think....) to Pittsburgh in the early 60's. So - I ticketed myself to root for a whole bunch of mediocre teams - but they were my teams.

As mentioned, I was also a Wilt fan - starting out when he was on that top notch 76ers squad and when he got traded to the LAL - I followed him and realized there was a whole bunch of really talented guys playing out west. So the LAL became my basketball team - and I fashioned my game after Jerry West and Gail Goodrich (forcing myself to learn & use my left hand independently) - and together we lost a whole bunch of seventh games to Boston.

Then there were the Frozen Tundra era Packers....and who could resist? They obviously had some high points.....then disappeared into NFL wastelands for a good long time. 

 

[AlexGreen#20]

2 hours ago, Leader said:

Yup and NY Yankee fan. Grew up in the New Jersey.

I think - dont remember exactly - that Mickey Mantle was my first sports hero. It was either him or Wilt - but probably Mantle. Unfortunate for me, I didnt realize he and the NYY existed until after their last WS appearance (and loss I think....) to Pittsburgh in the early 60's. So - I ticketed myself to root for a whole bunch of mediocre teams - but they were my teams.

As mentioned, I was also a Wilt fan - starting out when he was on that top notch 76ers squad and when he got traded to the LAL - I followed him and realized there was a whole bunch of really talented guys playing out west. So the LAL became my basketball team - and I fashioned my game after Jerry West and Gail Goodrich (forcing myself to learn & use my left hand independently) - and together we lost a whole bunch of seventh games to Boston.

Then there were the Frozen Tundra era Packers....and who could resist? They obviously had some high points.....then disappeared into NFL wastelands for a good long time. 

 

Sad

[Leader]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Sad

Ha! Love it.

Why's that AG? Come on...I'm dying to know.

[StinkySauce]

On 5/26/2018 at 8:12 AM, AlexGreen#20 said:

I've long held the opinion that only basketball hipsters do, that Kareem Abdul Jabbar was a more impactful player than Michael Jordan. His offensive impact was just huge. Led the league in volume scoring his first three years in the league with ridiculously good efficiency in years 2 and 3. All while playing all world defense. He could have continued with that, but chose to sacrifice numbers for team success. He led the league in blocks 4 of the first 7 years they kept track of the stat and in two of the years that he didn't lead the league, he played fewer than 66 games. Also was a dominant rebounder and averaged about 4.5 assists per game. Add on that his longevity is basically unmatched (pending what Lebron does in the next four years) and you've got my vote. Only real knock is that he didn't start winning championships until Magic Johnson made it to the Lakers, but there wasn't any talent on the Lakers before that because they traded it all for Kareem.

+++

 

I like those stats.  Kareem was a freak.  Even if it's useless info, I like to mention that Kareem, as the all-time career score champ, made 0 one three pointers during his career, half of which was played after the 3 point goal was added in '79.  I'm not old enough to have watched his early years; but anyone old enough to remember watching him even in the later years knows that he was unstoppable - unstoppable in the sense that is almost, but not quite, literal.  Defenses could not marginalize what he did on offense, except by limiting his access to the ball.  Not an easy task.  And as you mentioned, he was a force on D, too.  

But I'm still a believer that, when playing the greatness comparison game, both Jabbar and James lack something Jordan had.  I agree that people often make the "undefeated in the finals" argument either from a place of ignorance or willful ambiguity.  But there's no arguing against Jordan's dominance . . . it was never something he stopped doing when he was tired or had a poor supporting cast, and his domination came in the form of wins and stats.  IMO, the best arguments to be made for James or Jabbar pertain to consistency over long careers, with various teams/teammates; Jordan was not able to maintain his greatness the way the other two have/did.  Also IMO, your stats do a better job arguing for Jabbar, arguing for James, than they do deflating Jordan's resume - the same way stats argue for Ted Williams' greatness without deflating Ruth's or Mays'.

And that's okay.  Stats help make a GOAT argument, but nobody makes a GOAT argument without a gut feeling.  Sometimes I watched Jabbar and thought, "This guy is unstoppable" but I never thought he was the GOAT.  Sometimes I watch James dominate and I do think he's the GOAT, but other times he disappears in a way that reminds me how Jordan dominated all the time.  In general, I'm more partial to James as GOAT arguments than Jabbar arguments, but . . . you know . . . Jabbar was okay, too.

Edited May 27, 2018 by StinkySauce

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Leader said:

Ha! Love it.

Why's that AG? Come on...I'm dying to know.

Because you're a bandwagoner

[Leader]

2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Because you're a bandwagoner

Ha! I love it even more! I chose these teams back when I was a young kid. In fact, I didnt even chose "teams" - I chose players and I stuck with them / their teams thru YEARS (and years....) of losing. Thats a bandwagoner in your book? HA!  

[AlexGreen#20]

17 minutes ago, StinkySauce said:

I like those stats.  Kareem was a freak.  Even if it's useless info, I like to mention that Kareem, as the all-time career score champ, made 0 one three pointers during his career, half of which was played after the 3 point goal was added in '79.  I'm not old enough to have watched his early years; but anyone old enough to remember watching him even in the later years knows that he was unstoppable - unstoppable in the sense that is almost, but not quite, literal.  Defenses could not marginalize what he did on offense, except by limiting his access to the ball.  Not an easy task.  And as you mentioned, he was a force on D, too.  

But I'm still a believer that, when playing the greatness comparison game, both Jabbar and James lack something Jordan had.  I agree that people often make the "undefeated in the finals" argument either from a place of ignorance or willful ambiguity.  But there's no arguing against Jordan's dominance . . . it was never something he stopped doing when he was tired or had a poor supporting cast, and his domination came in the form of wins and stats.  IMO, the best arguments to be made for James or Jabbar pertain to consistency over long careers, with various teams/teammates; Jordan was not able to maintain his greatness the way the other two have/did.  Also IMO, your stats do a better job arguing for Jabbar, arguing for James, than they do deflating Jordan's resume - the same way stats argue for Ted Williams' greatness without deflating Ruth's or Mays'.

And that's okay.  Stats help make a GOAT argument, but nobody makes a GOAT argument without a gut feeling.  Sometimes I watched Jabbar and thought, "This guy is unstoppable" but I never thought he was the GOAT.  Sometimes I watch James dominate and I do think he's the GOAT, but other times he disappears in a way that reminds me how Jordan dominated all the time.  In general, I'm more partial to James as GOAT arguments than Jabbar arguments, but . . . you know . . . Jabbar was okay, too.

I guess I point to the 93 Knicks series.

The Bulls won that series in 6 game.

Jordan shot:

10/27

12/32

3/18

18/30

11/24

8/24

Can you imagine a team that LeBron Cavs team winning that series?

[Shanedorf]

Only one of those 3 star players won Championships with a different name on the front AND on the back of their jerseys

[StinkySauce]

I don't disagree with that line of thinking for entertainment purposes, but I don't think you can carry it far enough to change the discussion.  It's tricky enough when comparing contemporary player-to-player against common opponents; but translating entire teams into specific circumstances in a completely different era is the stuff for video games.  Fun, though.  The greatest team season in history?  Was it the '95 Bulls?  Sure, it was the greatest domination from beginning to finish, but was it the best team ever?  I doubt it.  

It's probably fair to say that Jordan, James, and Jabbar would have excelled in any era, and it's important to feel that way about your candidate when considering him for the GOAT title.  

[StinkySauce]

16 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Only one of those 3 star players won Championships with a different name on the front AND on the back of their jerseys

Nuts, that's true!  Okay, I'm on board.

[Leader]

I dont get into GOAT conversations / comparisions of differing players - but - something I had thought was that Jabbar probably had the best / most unstoppable shot in NBA history (outside of a slam dunk by Chamberlain or somebody.....) - the Sky Hook.

When you see photos of him shooting one and consider the height and distance (from a defender) that he released the ball from.......unstoppable IMO.

[ThatJerkDave]

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Because you're a bandwagoner

I don't know man.  Leader said that he saw some pretty old players.  I mean the Lombardi Packers were over 50 years ago.  Sticking with teams that long doesn't say bandwagon to me.  Now the Seahawks fans that were 49er or Cowboys fans 10 years ago, or anyone who claims the Golden State Warriors as their team, those are bandwagon fans.

 

Am I a bandwagon fan because I cheer for the Packers and the Cardinals? Both have been my teams for my entire life.  Both have a lot of championships and have been good for most of my life.