Coverage or Pass Rush?

[childofpudding]

 

 

 

[childofpudding]

As to the OP, I'm not sure I would define Baltimore as primary coverage. They blitz more than anyone else in the league, and have the 2nd most QB hits behind the Steelers, so the team is clearly focused heavily on rushing the passer.

And as for the topic, I'm not sure. I'd be curious at looking at the correlation between low ANY/A and several team defensive stats, including completion%, pass defensed %, sack %, QB hit %, INT%, and so on.

[SalvadorsDeli]

6 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

As to the OP, I'm not sure I would define Baltimore as primary coverage. They blitz more than anyone else in the league, and have the 2nd most QB hits behind the Steelers, so the team is clearly focused heavily on rushing the passer.

And as for the topic, I'm not sure. I'd be curious at looking at the correlation between low ANY/A and several team defensive stats, including completion%, pass defensed %, sack %, QB hit %, INT%, and so on.

I guess this is somewhat a semantics question but in terms of what we've built our defense around, there's been a pretty noticeable shift in recent years towards emphasizing and prioritizing coverage. Basically it seems like they realized as teams move towards embracing spread/Air Raid concepts, teams are almost never in their base defenses anyways, so we've made a point of collecting as many corners and safeties as we can. The whole reason we blitz so much is because we haven't put as much emphasis on bringing in pure pass rushers, so our entire defense is predicated on trusting the secondary to hold up in coverage the extra second or 2 and then manufacturing pressure through confusion/overload blitz packages to get to the QB even with mostly average rushers. Maybe that's a chicken or the egg question but I think our defense is heavily tilted towards believing that a good secondary is the key to a good pass rush rather than the other way around. 

[Hukos]

I still think I want a better pass rush, but that's because I've watched Drew Brees for over a decade look at elite corners and torch them play after play, no matter how good they were. There are some QBs where I think even an elite secondary just can't stop an elite QB. Manufacturing pressure via the blitz against someone like him just doesn't happen because he's going to know about it instantly and find the empty part of the field and get you for 15-20 yards, no matter how good your corners are.

The times my team has actually beaten the Saints is because we've made Brees' life hell in the pocket.

[childofpudding]

56 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

I guess this is somewhat a semantics question but in terms of what we've built our defense around, there's been a pretty noticeable shift in recent years towards emphasizing and prioritizing coverage. Basically it seems like they realized as teams move towards embracing spread/Air Raid concepts, teams are almost never in their base defenses anyways, so we've made a point of collecting as many corners and safeties as we can. The whole reason we blitz so much is because we haven't put as much emphasis on bringing in pure pass rushers, so our entire defense is predicated on trusting the secondary to hold up in coverage the extra second or 2 and then manufacturing pressure through confusion/overload blitz packages to get to the QB even with mostly average rushers. Maybe that's a chicken or the egg question but I think our defense is heavily tilted towards believing that a good secondary is the key to a good pass rush rather than the other way around. 

Yes, I see your point. But if the team thought its secondary and coverage LBs were that great, I think it would drop 7 or 8 more often. Instead, its playcalling is showing that it does think that generating pass rush is important.

I'd challenge your contention that BAL has only been focused on collecting as many cornerbacks and safeties as possible. Maybe in FA that is true, but the team has drafted a lot of defensive linemen and linebackers. Maybe their philosophy is just that it's more important to sign the marquee secondary players when you can, but that pass rush can be more easily replaced via the draft and scheme, like blitzing a lot. Which, like you said, is kind of a semantics discussion.

[wackywabbit]

7 hours ago, childofpudding said:

Yes, I see your point. But if the team thought its secondary and coverage LBs were that great, I think it would drop 7 or 8 more often. Instead, its playcalling is showing that it does think that generating pass rush is important.

I'd challenge your contention that BAL has only been focused on collecting as many cornerbacks and safeties as possible. Maybe in FA that is true, but the team has drafted a lot of defensive linemen and linebackers. Maybe their philosophy is just that it's more important to sign the marquee secondary players when you can, but that pass rush can be more easily replaced via the draft and scheme, like blitzing a lot. Which, like you said, is kind of a semantics discussion.

They question (I think) is whether you build a team by prioritizing pass rush or coverage, and Baltimore very strongly went towards coverage. 

The idea is that pass rush can be schemed, if you have guys on the field who can't cover, a good opposing QB can always quickly go in that direction before the pass rush even matters.

[RamblinMan99]

I don't think there's anything more valuable in today's league than having corners and safeties that are proficient in man-to-man coverage.  

The quarterback can sit in the pocket for days, and either decide to run or eventually be sacked because all of his wideouts are shut down.  

Pass rush really depends on what kind of quarterback is on the field.  

If you have a purely pocket passer, then you'd want to try to apply that kind of pressure.  

But, if you have a QB that can escape the pocket, then he's capable of throwing across his body under extreme pressure and completing that pass.

But, that's assuming that your secondary is playing zone while you have a blitz up front.  

If your defense has the luxury of having free edge rushers on both sides while having safeties that can play man-to-man, then the quarterback's chances are slim. 

[diamondbull424]

20 hours ago, childofpudding said:

Yes, I see your point. But if the team thought its secondary and coverage LBs were that great, I think it would drop 7 or 8 more often. Instead, its playcalling is showing that it does think that generating pass rush is important.

I'd challenge your contention that BAL has only been focused on collecting as many cornerbacks and safeties as possible. Maybe in FA that is true, but the team has drafted a lot of defensive linemen and linebackers. Maybe their philosophy is just that it's more important to sign the marquee secondary players when you can, but that pass rush can be more easily replaced via the draft and scheme, like blitzing a lot. Which, like you said, is kind of a semantics discussion.

This is absolutely not accurate and a complete misrepresentation of the Ravens build as a unit. You’re essentially trying to build a case for the Ravens being a pass rush oriented team because they “blitz to rush the passer”.

Whereas the reality is that the elite talent in the secondary affords the team the time and option to zero blitz or get coverage sacks.

The question is asking which unit do you prioritize when building your team. The easy answer for the Ravens has been their coverage units. Like this isn’t even close. You mentioned spending a lot of draft capital on pass rushers, who? How?

Marlon Humphrey was drafted mid 1st round. Jimmy Smith within the first round (and resigned to a big time deal). Tavon Young was in the 4th round. Invested in trading for Marcus Peters, signed secondary players Earl Thomas, Brandon Carr (and Tony Jefferson). Chuck Clark was drafted as a developmental player that has taken off.

On the other hand at pass rusher the teams highest drafted rusher on this current squad was mid 2nd rounder Tyus Bowser. Matt Judon was taken in the 5th round. Jaylon Ferguson was drafted in the 3rd round. We picked up Pernell McPhee to a prove it deal. We picked up street free agent Jihad Ward to be used in McPhee’s role essentially. We have not traded for any pass rushing talent.

It is very disingenuous to try and build a point about the Ravens “pass rush” being the focus on this team when in reality the very opposite is true.

[SBLIII]

Coverage. Been saying it for a long time.

[SBLIII]

On 20.12.2019 at 4:13 AM, DABEARSLCF04 said:

If you build a pass rush, the coverage will come.

ask the 2018 Kansas City Chiefs. It's an emphatic NO.

[wackywabbit]

35 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

This is absolutely not accurate and a complete misrepresentation of the Ravens build as a unit. You’re essentially trying to build a case for the Ravens being a pass rush oriented team because they “blitz to rush the passer”.

Whereas the reality is that the elite talent in the secondary affords the team the time and option to zero blitz or get coverage sacks.

The question is asking which unit do you prioritize when building your team. The easy answer for the Ravens has been their coverage units. Like this isn’t even close. You mentioned spending a lot of draft capital on pass rushers, who? How?

Marlon Humphrey was drafted mid 1st round. Jimmy Smith within the first round (and resigned to a big time deal). Tavon Young was in the 4th round. Invested in trading for Marcus Peters, signed secondary players Earl Thomas, Brandon Carr (and Tony Jefferson). Chuck Clark was drafted as a developmental player that has taken off.

On the other hand at pass rusher the teams highest drafted rusher on this current squad was mid 2nd rounder Tyus Bowser. Matt Judon was taken in the 5th round. Jaylon Ferguson was drafted in the 3rd round. We picked up Pernell McPhee to a prove it deal. We picked up street free agent Jihad Ward to be used in McPhee’s role essentially. We have not traded for any pass rushing talent.

It is very disingenuous to try and build a point about the Ravens “pass rush” being the focus on this team when in reality the very opposite is true.

To add on to this they gave Tony Jefferson a big contract recently. Both him and Earl Thomas were signed at the loss of a premium compensatory pick which is a big deal to them. They extended Tavon Young to a big deal early, while letting Z'Darius Smith, Suggs, and CJ Mosley all walk without doing virtually anything significant to replace then. They've not engaged Judon in any talks yet either, so he's more probably than not also walking.

There is a very obvious pattern in the investments the Ravens are making.

I think there's a lot of low level logic (as well as analytics) to support this approach. For example:

- You don't have great rushers but you can blitz and have a numbers advantage at some position on the line. If you get 2 rushers on one blocker, or 3 on 2, one of them can get through and get to the QB. The defense "wins" the play here. Doesn't matter where the pass rush came from.

- On the other hand, you cant double team all of 4 people running routes. If you don't have a good and deep set of DBs, the QB can choose to throw at the single covered guy who is the worst at coverage and the offense "wins". The offense dictates where the ball is thrown, so you have to be sound everywhere. That requires talent everywhere or a single area of weakness where you can send extra help.

Edited December 21, 2019 by wackywabbit

[buno67]

On 12/19/2019 at 9:30 PM, samsel23 said:

The really good QB’s can neutralize a good pass rush.   Won’t have near as much success if coverage is always good.  

true but you cant expect your coverage to hold up for a long time if the pass rush cant get home. 

[childofpudding]

4 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

This is absolutely not accurate and a complete misrepresentation of the Ravens build as a unit. You’re essentially trying to build a case for the Ravens being a pass rush oriented team because they “blitz to rush the passer”.

Whereas the reality is that the elite talent in the secondary affords the team the time and option to zero blitz or get coverage sacks.

The question is asking which unit do you prioritize when building your team. The easy answer for the Ravens has been their coverage units. Like this isn’t even close. You mentioned spending a lot of draft capital on pass rushers, who? How?

Marlon Humphrey was drafted mid 1st round. Jimmy Smith within the first round (and resigned to a big time deal). Tavon Young was in the 4th round. Invested in trading for Marcus Peters, signed secondary players Earl Thomas, Brandon Carr (and Tony Jefferson). Chuck Clark was drafted as a developmental player that has taken off.

On the other hand at pass rusher the teams highest drafted rusher on this current squad was mid 2nd rounder Tyus Bowser. Matt Judon was taken in the 5th round. Jaylon Ferguson was drafted in the 3rd round. We picked up Pernell McPhee to a prove it deal. We picked up street free agent Jihad Ward to be used in McPhee’s role essentially. We have not traded for any pass rushing talent.

It is very disingenuous to try and build a point about the Ravens “pass rush” being the focus on this team when in reality the very opposite is true.

The poll question is what is more valuable on defense.

If a team blitzes more than half of dropbacks, leading the league, and it has the 2nd most QB hits in the league, then it clearly values pass rush. I agree that it values secondary too considering the capital it has invested there.

Edited December 21, 2019 by childofpudding

[diamondbull424]

19 minutes ago, childofpudding said:

The poll question is what is more valuable on defense.

If a team blitzes more than half of dropbacks, leading the league, and it has the 2nd most QB hits in the league, then it clearly values pass rush. I agree that it values secondary too considering the capital it has invested there.

Ah. So now you resort to arguing the semantics of your position so as to switch up the argument to suit your selection. Cool beans.

Everyone in this thread knows the nature of this argument because it has been argued on this forum ad nauseum. It would be pointless for the OP to add the signifier of “When building the defense” because we know what it’s referring to.

We know the question is “what is more important when building your defense; pass rush or coverage.” And in the estimation of the Baltimore Ravens, the answer is quite and unequivocally clearly the coverage segment in 2019.

Perhaps in the future this might change, but the current defensive build is of the belief that pressure can be schemed easier when you have elite coverage than to scheme coverage to match your elite pressure. As @wackywabbit added this has quite clearly been the team build design and you are clearly misrepresenting this. Everyone else in this thread is arguing build design and you instead are arguing semantics. Let’s be real. 😂

[childofpudding]

5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Ah. So now you resort to arguing the semantics of your position so as to switch up the argument to suit your selection. Cool beans.

Everyone in this thread knows the nature of this argument because it has been argued on this forum ad nauseum. It would be pointless for the OP to add the signifier of “When building the defense” because we know what it’s referring to.

We know the question is “what is more important when building your defense; pass rush or coverage.” And in the estimation of the Baltimore Ravens, the answer is quite and unequivocally clearly the coverage segment in 2019.

Perhaps in the future this might change, but the current defensive build is of the belief that pressure can be schemed easier when you have elite coverage than to scheme coverage to match your elite pressure. As @wackywabbit added this has quite clearly been the team build design and you are clearly misrepresenting this. Everyone else in this thread is arguing build design and you instead are arguing semantics. Let’s be real. 😂

Not sure why you're getting so upset about this. My original post was that I wasn't sure if Baltimore primarily values coverage because they blitz a lot. I've been answering the poll question since I started posting in this thread.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. I am using facts - Baltimore blitzing more than half of dropbacks and more than any other team in the league, as well as being 2nd in the league in QB hits - to argue that Baltimore clearly thinks pass rush is valuable. I also agree with you that Baltimore, via its FA signings, thinks coverage is valuable as well.

I'm cool with you disagreeing about that, though. I understand your point of view and am not going to get bent out of shape because it's different than mine. Cheers.