Williams Asks for Extension or Trade

[MKnight82]

15 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Not saying he's a drama queen, just scummy to use cancer as a way to get money out of the team.  And maybe this is hitting harder to me than most because of my personal experiences with cancer (I haven't had it, but my family has suffered through it and people in my personal circle are being impacted right now as I type this out.). 

My dad had cancer last year and kicked its *** (he's now cancer free), so it definitely hits home for me too.  But that's why I don't understand your reaction to Trent here.  Trent Williams had cancer, its not like he made it up.  The Redskins doctors also did misdiagnosis him.  I would be upset with them too. 

19 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Larry Hess as a trainer would not be involved in diagnosing a cyst, cancer, etc.  That's all on Inova Health.  So if this is indeed the crux of Williams beef with the club, why is he still not holding out demanding a trade?  Now it's trade or a new contract, despite Inova still being employed as the team doctors of the Redskins. 

Well he had to report in order to log his season of time played, so that's why he showed up.  I don't think we know yet what his plans for this season are.  We know he wants more money, we don't know whether that is enough or not.  

20 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Suggested by a doctor, at least to me, means it is encouraged. 

None of us were in that room.  None of us know what was actually said.  

20 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

So it's either he wanted a new contract all along, or it's indeed a medical issue. 

It doesn't have to be either/or, it could have been both.  I honestly believe he just didn't want to play for Bruce Allen anymore either.  

21 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Considering that Inova health is still here, and Williams will return with a new contract, indicates to me what's more important for him.  And therefore, really scummy.  

No it really isn't scummy.  Bruce is gone, and he was the big problem.  We don't know anything that is going on behind the scenes.  A lot of what you are implying as "scummy" you are assuming.  

[naptownskinsfan]

2 minutes ago, tredaddy said:

The reality is neither you or I know about Hess' involvement with the Trent situation - going down this path of assumptions is meaningless and offers little value.  I pointed out Trent Williams made it clear to delineate Snyder's involvement with the situation -- logically, i think its fair to believe Hess had some negative role into this situation or Trent would have done the same for him. 

You can say what you want that Hess shouldn't have the ability to diagnose a cyst or cancer but the reality is as head trainer, his responsibility is the overseeing the overall well-being of ALL redskins athletes.  Just as much as its an overseeing director's fault when a programmer on his/her team massively screws up coding, it's on Larry Hess for ignoring this issue with Trent for so many years.  

Just because Trent went through the whole cancer situation AND wants a new contract does not mean he is "using" his cancer to get money out of the team.  That is just a very pessimistic viewpoint with no factual evidence to support it.  

 

 

No, I don't know about his involvement specifically.  

What I do know is that I have a cousin who used to be a S&C coordinator at a big DI school, and if someone came to him complaining about something like this, it is straight onto the medical team.  S&C does NOTHING to diagnose health issues on that level (and most injuries for that matter) and that's directly from a subject matter expert, so I feel comfortable in extrapolating what probably did or didn't happen in this situation and who is responsible.  If Williams really is concerned about his well-being from the tumor diagnosis, he wouldn't be coming back here unless Inova Health was fired as the team's medical provider, plain and simple.  

[tredaddy]

9 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

No, I don't know about his involvement specifically.  

What I do know is that I have a cousin who used to be a S&C coordinator at a big DI school, and if someone came to him complaining about something like this, it is straight onto the medical team.  S&C does NOTHING to diagnose health issues on that level (and most injuries for that matter) and that's directly from a subject matter expert, so I feel comfortable in extrapolating what probably did or didn't happen in this situation and who is responsible.  If Williams really is concerned about his well-being from the tumor diagnosis, he wouldn't be coming back here unless Inova Health was fired as the team's medical provider, plain and simple.  

No point in going down this debate with you if you're going to continue down assumption avenue!  Saying Hess had no involvement at all because you have a friend in college makes no sense.  It was Hess who was flown by Snyder to Chicago after he was diagnosed.  If he wasn't responsible for his health in any way, I wonder why Snyder would choose him 

Edited March 2, 2020 by tredaddy

[naptownskinsfan]

1 minute ago, tredaddy said:

No point in going down this debate with you if you're going to continue down assumption avenue!  Saying Hess had no involvement at all because you have a friend in college makes no sense.  It was Hess who was flown by Snyder to Chicago after he was diagnosed.  If he wasn't responsible for his health in any way, I wonder why Snyder would choose him 

Hess wouldn't have any part of diagnosing a tumor.  Hess isn't a doctor.  Strength and conditioning guys aren't doctors.  That's what I'm saying.  If players came to my cousin complaining about something like that, they send them right to the team doctors.  

Sure, Hess is responsible for the training regimen for Williams, as well as injury prevention and other things, but he ain't diagnosing a tumor.  

So again, back to Inova Health.  

[naptownskinsfan]

1 hour ago, MikeT14 said:

College forum with @naptownskinsfan and thank you.

[MikeT14]

2 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Still maybe my favorite meme of all time.

[Thaiphoon]

15 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

You guys are ridiculous.  Williams is a hero for helping get rid of Bruce. 

Yes. Because we were so successful under Bruce right before Trent held out. 

Look, my friend. Trent is banking on your EXACT fan reaction. Which is basically in the same realm as "the Redskins misdiagnosed his cancer and almost killed him so they should pay him a ton of money" reaction. 

Am I happy Bruce is gone? Sure am

Do I attribute that to Trent's cancer? Nope. Snyder knows Trent was using it as a negotiating ploy to get more $$. The guy is stupid about a lot of football stuff, but he's smart enough to see someone trying to shake him down.

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 He’s also wasted his talent playing for this crap franchise.  

Here we agree. He should've just led with this last year (instead of blaming him "almost dying" on the Redskins) and more people would be on his side.

[Thaiphoon]

1 hour ago, MKnight82 said:

My dad had cancer last year and kicked its *** (he's now cancer free), so it definitely hits home for me too.  But that's why I don't understand your reaction to Trent here.  Trent Williams had cancer, its not like he made it up.  The Redskins doctors also did misdiagnosis him.  I would be upset with them too. 

And yet, it was reported that he was told to seek a 2nd opinion from his own doctors. Millions of people every day do that exact same thing (2nd opinion). But Trent with all his money is too stupid to do so?

BTW - my mom is also a cancer survivor. I understand the scariness of it. 

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None of us were in that room.  None of us know what was actually said.

It will be in the record. But Trent doesn't want a 3rd party to review this particular incident to see if the Redskins failed him or not. I wonder why... 

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It doesn't have to be either/or, it could have been both.  I honestly believe he just didn't want to play for Bruce Allen anymore either.

  GREAT! Then man up and say that. Hiding behind your cancer scare as a way to fleece more guaranteed money out of the team (after already being paid that guaranteed money in the contract) is cowardly.

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No it really isn't scummy.  Bruce is gone, and he was the big problem.  We don't know anything that is going on behind the scenes.  A lot of what you are implying as "scummy" you are assuming.  

Know how we can find out? An independent review of the situation.

[Thaiphoon]

4 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

You're trying to shoebox a complicated situation into a simple answer.   

It's not complicated at all. What specifically did Bruce do wrong vis-a-vis the "misdiagnosed cancer" situation that was the original reason he held out? Pretty simple question. Pretty simple answer.

The only people making it complicated are the ones that want to bring in OTHER things that were NOT the original reason he sat out.

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There were likely MULTIPLE reasons Trent Williams didn't play for the Redskins last season.  One thing that really gripes me though, is you're accusing Trent of acting nefariously towards these doctors and assuming he's using them as leverage to get money (and yes they are all assumptions on your part, there is no proof he has done this). 

Just like your assumption that he isn't.

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Trent Williams had cancer, that is scary as hell.  At his age it must have been shocking, and its the kind of diagnosis that can shake the very foundation of families (Trent is almost certainly the pillar of his family).  

Here we agree. My mom is a cancer survivor. She didn't use that to slander people in order to get more $ though.

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Trent Williams is also an employee of a multi-billion corporation.  Do I care at all if he's trying to get a few more million dollars out of the billionaire owner?  No I do not. 

Except those few more million dollars count against a salary cap. He's also slandering people to do it.

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 Now do I want to use all of our cap up on an aging LT that wants to be paid big bucks?  No I don't, but that is a football debate, I'm not attacking Trent's moral character.  There is nothing wrong with Trent Williams asking for more money.

Nope. There's nothing wrong with him asking for more $. Then why didn't he just do that last year instead of slandering people? That's where the whole "moral character" takes a hit. 

TBQH - had he simply decided to sit out for more $, I'd completely not care that much about it other than the price tag. But he didn't choose that route, did he?  

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And because Trent is just an employee, it was NOT his responsibility to remedy this situation. 

Actually, the cancer? Yeah...yeah it is his responsibility. The Redskins are not responsible for diagnosing or treating cancer. Which is why the doctors told him to get a 2nd opinion. One that Trent failed to do multiple times.

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Bruce Allen was the head of the organization and should have done something about this before it ever got this bad.

Yes. Like trade him. But again, that has nothing to do with my question. What specifically vis-a-vis Trent's cancer diagnosis and treatment did Bruce do wrong? You can't answer that.

Instead you lead with this...

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But he didn't, and that's because he's a piece of crap.  Bruce treated his employees like slaves, told them to shut and and do what they were told and Trent was having none of that.  

We agree here. But that is not specific to this situation. Had Trent said "I'm not reporting because I want more $$" or "I'm not reporting because Bruce treats his players like slaves and we're told to do what we're told", then he'd have more backers. But he didn't do that did he? He let a slander campaign ensue throughout the whole offseason and well into the regular season. Months of the average fan clamoring "The Redskins didn't diagnose his cancer and almost killed Trent so they need to pay up". Tugging at emotions. Unfortunately for Trent, I don't get emotionally blackmailed often.

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Trent Williams is a HERO for sitting out last year and helping facilitate change in this organization.  The front office was toxic, an embarrassment, and had the gal to be smug about it.  You guys should be thanking Trent not attacking him.

Yup. It was all Trent. Bruce led a perennial playoff-contender and we had a full stadium for years. Then Trent sat out and that was it for Snyder. Do you realize how ridiculous your position is?

[tredaddy]

9 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

And yet, it was reported that he was told to seek a 2nd opinion from his own doctors. Millions of people every day do that exact same thing (2nd opinion). But Trent with all his money is too stupid to do so?

BTW - my mom is also a cancer survivor. I understand the scariness of it. 

I'm confused why people are acting like Trent didn't seek a second opinion.  Isn't that how he got diagnosed in the first place?  He was assured over and over again for years that it was just a cyst.  How exactly are you actually being recommended to get a second opinion when you are told over and over again that it's just a cyst?  There's a big difference from being recommended to get a second opinion vs being given permission to do so despite being assured it's not a health issue from medical professionals.  

 

[Thaiphoon]

11 minutes ago, tredaddy said:

I'm confused why people are acting like Trent didn't seek a second opinion.  

Because Trent said so. He laid out when he got that 2nd opinion. Which wasn't until years after the first cyst was noticed.

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He was assured over and over again for years that it was just a cyst. 

He was told initially to get a 2nd opinion. But according to Trent (whom we all must believe 100% as he would never lie - like George Washington), he was told there was nothing to worry about. 

Even if that were true. He was told to get a 2nd opinion. And as I've said ad nauseum, doctors do not automatically diagnose cancer. Especially not team doctors who are specializing in treating physical sports injuries. So their referral was good enough.

I got a 2nd opinion on the cyst on the back of my head. Saved my life. Why couldn't Trent do the same? Why is he off the hook for his health but I'm not? He's a grown man, like I am. He's got tens of millions more in the bank than me too. So he could afford to swing by an outside doctor and get a 2nd opinion at anytime in any of the offseasons and get tested. Just like he finally did years later.

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How exactly are you actually being recommended to get a second opinion when you are told over and over again that it's just a cyst?

 See above. Team doctors are going to see a cyst on the head and assume it is because of the helmet rubbing his skin. They told him to get a 2nd opinion. He didn't.

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There's a big difference from being recommended to get a second opinion vs being given permission to do so despite being assured it's not a health issue from medical professionals.  

I asked my podiatrist about my kidney the other day. He wasn't able to help me out. Want to know why? Because he doesn't specialize in Urology. Same with sports doctors. They aren't Oncologists so they don't specialize in diagnosing cancer. Which is why Trent was responsible for getting it checked out on his own. 

Trent is ultimately responsible for his health. This was on him. Telling me he is not is infantilizing him by telling me that doctors that don't specialize in Oncology were supposed to correctly diagnose and test for cancer (tell me, how many cancer labs are in NFL clubhouses again?) and he's just supposed to sit there like a helpless baby. Again..I got a 2nd opinion. Why couldn't he? 

[Thaiphoon]

15 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Again, you won't see me argue that Bruce Allen was a saint when dealing with players- he wasn't, as evidenced by how much we had to overpay players to come here.  But Williams is leverage a very real scenario that's all too many people have encountered personally in their lives to get paid more millions of dollars for playing football, when that reason is not at all what his main issue is about since Inova Health is still employed by the Redskins.  This is, quite frankly, a pretty scummy move from Trent Williams at this point.  I don't feel any sympathy for him at all.  

This is where I'm at. No problem with him seeking more money. No problem with him not wanting to play for this dumpster fire of an organization. Big problem with how he handled it. Literally lost all respect for the guy.

[MKnight82]

2 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

It's not complicated at all. What specifically did Bruce do wrong vis-a-vis the "misdiagnosed cancer" situation that was the original reason he held out? Pretty simple question. Pretty simple answer.

The only people making it complicated are the ones that want to bring in OTHER things that were NOT the original reason he sat out.

Bruce is not a doctor.  You seem to be trying to imply I'm saying Bruce is somehow at fault for Trent's cancer, or at fault for Trent not going out and getting a 2nd opinion.  I never said that because that would be ridiculous.  Bruce is at fault for Trent not playing last season because a GM needs to go to his best player and figure out whatever is wrong and make it right.  That is what good managers do.  

5 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Just like your assumption that he isn't.

I'm not assuming anything.  I've stated multiple times that none of us know enough information about what went down to make any sort of informed opinion.  That is not an assumption that's just reality.  My beef is with people going after a guy that just had a cancer scare and trying to frame him as a bad guy.  

7 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Here we agree. My mom is a cancer survivor. She didn't use that to slander people in order to get more $ though.

That is great news, anyone who wins the battle has my respect.  Your 3rd sentence is an assumption of yours that isn't based on any facts that we know.

8 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Nope. There's nothing wrong with him asking for more $. Then why didn't he just do that last year instead of slandering people? That's where the whole "moral character" takes a hit. 

TBQH - had he simply decided to sit out for more $, I'd completely not care that much about it other than the price tag. But he didn't choose that route, did he?  

Because like anything in this world I'm sure its a lot more complicated then what you're trying to paint it as.  Also I'm sorry, but if I found out I had cancer after having been misdiagnosed by my primary doctor I would be really upset with that doctor too.  

12 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Actually, the cancer? Yeah...yeah it is his responsibility. The Redskins are not responsible for diagnosing or treating cancer. Which is why the doctors told him to get a 2nd opinion. One that Trent failed to do multiple times.

You and I are not talking about the same thing.  The fact that Trent had cancer isn't up for debate, or even his diagnosis.  I'm talking about how Bruce managed it after the fact.  You have your best player, the most important player on the roster for probably the past decade having a major beef with your medical staff.  The medical staff mean nothing to the franchise, Trent Williams wins games and sells tickets.  Its very simple, just freaking get rid of the medical staff and appease your star LT.  Throw him a bone with some more money, kiss his butt a little in the media talking about how important he is to the franchise and move on.  Instead Bruce got in a pissing match with the team's best player.  

15 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

We agree here. But that is not specific to this situation. Had Trent said "I'm not reporting because I want more $$" or "I'm not reporting because Bruce treats his players like slaves and we're told to do what we're told", then he'd have more backers. But he didn't do that did he? He let a slander campaign ensue throughout the whole offseason and well into the regular season. Months of the average fan clamoring "The Redskins didn't diagnose his cancer and almost killed Trent so they need to pay up". Tugging at emotions. Unfortunately for Trent, I don't get emotionally blackmailed often.

You and I are not privy to any of the dialog that has occurred between Trent's camp and the team, which is why everything you're implying is pure speculation on your part.  

16 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Yup. It was all Trent. Bruce led a perennial playoff-contender and we had a full stadium for years. Then Trent sat out and that was it for Snyder. Do you realize how ridiculous your position is?

This is a rude response.  Nothing I've posted is ridiculous.  Trent's absence and the circus around it absolutely had a part in Bruce's dismissal and to imply otherwise is just being intentionally defiant on your part.   

[Thaiphoon]

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Bruce is not a doctor.  You seem to be trying to imply I'm saying Bruce is somehow at fault for Trent's cancer, or at fault for Trent not going out and getting a 2nd opinion.  I never said that because that would be ridiculous. 

But yet. That is pretty much everyone's position that talks about this. Look at the other fans' reactions.

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Bruce is at fault for Trent not playing last season because a GM needs to go to his best player and figure out whatever is wrong and make it right.  That is what good managers do.  

And when Trent tells him that he wants tons of guaranteed money? After missing quite a few games and his skills declining? The GM is supposed to just say "sure Trent, here's a blank check"??

Come on...

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I'm not assuming anything.  I've stated multiple times that none of us know enough information about what went down to make any sort of informed opinion.  That is not an assumption that's just reality.  My beef is with people going after a guy that just had a cancer scare and trying to frame him as a bad guy.  

Because...as you mentioned above...the "cancer scare" was not the fault of the Redskins. So why bring this into it if not to emotionally blackmail people?

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That is great news, anyone who wins the battle has my respect.  Your 3rd sentence is an assumption of yours that isn't based on any facts that we know.

No assumption. My mom didn't use it to slander people. Know how we can figure out if Trent did? A 3rd party review.

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Because like anything in this world I'm sure its a lot more complicated then what you're trying to paint it as.  Also I'm sorry, but if I found out I had cancer after having been misdiagnosed by my primary doctor I would be really upset with that doctor too.  

I was upset about the first doctor misdiagnosing my cyst as well. Because he was a specialist in that field. But I wouldn't be upset with my dentist for not diagnosing kidney stones.

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You and I are not talking about the same thing.  The fact that Trent had cancer isn't up for debate, or even his diagnosis.  I'm talking about how Bruce managed it after the fact.  You have your best player, the most important player on the roster for probably the past decade having a major beef with your medical staff. 

Wait...if the medical staff were not at fault for Trent not going to get a 2nd opinion (and catching it before it became "life threatening") then we only have Trent's word that it was a beef with the medical staff. Know how we can find out who is telling the truth? A 3rd party review.

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The medical staff mean nothing to the franchise, Trent Williams wins games and sells tickets.  Its very simple, just freaking get rid of the medical staff and appease your star LT.  Throw him a bone with some more money, kiss his butt a little in the media talking about how important he is to the franchise and move on.  Instead Bruce got in a pissing match with the team's best player.  

And now you're still arguing that this has to do with the cancer scare. Either the Redskins are at fault for not diagnosing the cancer or they aren't. Make up your mind.

As for getting rid of the medical team, well...he's apparently okay with playing this year with the same medical team. As long as we accede to his contract demands. So much for that "beef with the medical team". IMHO this continues to be Trent trying to squeeze more $ out of the team and using the medical team as a foil to do it.

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You and I are not privy to any of the dialog that has occurred between Trent's camp and the team, which is why everything you're implying is pure speculation on your part.  

And you're also speculating. Know how we can find out who is telling the truth? A 3rd party review.

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This is a rude response.  Nothing I've posted is ridiculous.     

No more rude than your post stating...

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Mknight82 said --> You guys are ridiculous.  Williams is a hero for helping get rid of Bruce.  He’s also wasted his talent playing for this crap franchise.  

It is ridiculous to me for people to engage in emotional blackmail. Which is exactly what Trent was gunning for IMHO. And fans have picked up and ran with it. Which is why I constantly get into discussions about how the Redskins were at fault and they should pay up.

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Trent's absence and the circus around it absolutely had a part in Bruce's dismissal and to imply otherwise is just being intentionally defiant on your part.

Even with Trent's holdout if we had had full stands and a perennial playoff team? Bruce is still our GM this year. I have zero doubt of that.

[MKnight82]

@Thaiphoon I'm done with this discussion.  I don't understand why you automatically assume a cancer survivor is using his story in some Machiavellian scheme to get money.  There's absolutely no proof that is what is happening.