Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[theJ]

Just now, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Oh get serious. We put 13 year olds in jail and specifically try them as adults for years because they copy wrestling moves, we expect every 18 year old to know the law inside and out because "ignorance isn't an excuse" and "we need personal responsibility", but now we have a 30 year old that we're treating like a toddler.

I don't think i gave an opinion one way or another.  I gave a reason why there's a significant number of people out there ignoring the virus.

I'm trying to have reasonable discourse, not assign blame.

[JDBrocks]

Just now, theJ said:

Yeah and the news he was reading likely made arguments that were compelling to him that it was a hoax.  That's how targeted ads work.  The whole thing is just an echo chamber.  It's why everyone gets so entrenched in their opinions now-a-days and can't see what the other side sees.

See the post above yours. This is just making excuses for being uninformed.

[MookieMonstah]

1 minute ago, theJ said:

Yeah and the news he was reading likely made arguments that were compelling to him that it was a hoax.  That's how targeted ads work.  The whole thing is just an echo chamber.  It's why everyone gets so entrenched in their opinions now-a-days and can't see what the other side sees.

This is fair. I personally don't see how anyone could be convinced this is just a global hoax to remove a dude from POTUS but I guess I haven't been flooded with that type of propaganda.

[theJ]

1 minute ago, JDBrocks said:

See the post above yours. This is just making excuses for being uninformed.

If you can't understand the opinions opposite of yours, you'll never be able to convince those opposed to come to your side.  Or even meet in the middle.

[JDBrocks]

Just now, MookieMonstah said:

This is fair. I personally don't see how anyone could be convinced this is just a global hoax to remove a dude from POTUS but I guess I haven't been flooded with that type of propaganda.

No, it's not fair. There's a minimum level of effort necessary for being informed. Checking sources is on that list. Should people be excused if they only get news from the National Enquirer or the Onion?

[JDBrocks]

Just now, theJ said:

If you can't understand the opinions opposite of yours, you'll never be able to convince those opposed to come to your side.  Or even meet in the middle.

THESE ARE NOT OPINIONS. DEATH FROM CORONAVIRUS IS REAL.

[ramssuperbowl99]

4 minutes ago, theJ said:

I don't think i gave an opinion one way or another.  I gave a reason why there's a significant number of people out there ignoring the virus.

I'm trying to have reasonable discourse, not assign blame.

Here's the specific part of your post that I object to:

Quote

I'm not sure it's really this, as much as it's just the media's influence on people's thoughts in this country.  It's really hard to educate when people get most of their "news" from Facebook, and that news is heavily slanted.  It's not really meant to inform, that "news" is meant to influence.

In other words, that likely didn't want to hurt anyone.  He didn't think it would lead to anything because the information he was given suggested it wouldn't.

This is a classic example of "don't hate the player, hate the game".

 

People aren't "given information". They seek it out. He has the same internet connection you or I do with all of the same access to official information, but he chose to ignore all of that an pretend that this was a vast conspiracy to (presumably) destroy the economy to impact an election.

You have absolved him of any responsibility for being an informed citizen by saying he "was given information", which is completely at odds with how the US handles every single other adult responsibility. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by ramssuperbowl99

[theJ]

9 minutes ago, MookieMonstah said:

29 minutes ago, WizeGuy said:

This is true; it's probably a mix of both. I have a friend in his 30s who was all about playing it safe back in March and April, but is now getting tired of not being able to party. Saw him on Instagram with 15+ other people shoulder to shoulder without masks indoors slamming brews. He knows how serious this virus is. We've talked about it. He just doesn't have the will power to continue the good fight, and that's pretty weak, imo. People really need to toughen up. We're all in this war together, so unfortunately the burden is on all of us to make sacrifices. 

I don't doubt some people think it's a 'flu', but I also believe some people play "ignorant" because it's the more comforting thought. They know it's more dangerous for a certain population, so they think "Well, I probably won't catch it, and even if I do it won't be too bad. Everything will be fine"

THIS is the problem. People don't care because for the most part it won't kill them, so they just go "Meh, I'm not going to die. I just won't go see Grandma for a week after this party".

There's definitely a certain amount of this.  We've seen a few friends in small settings (as in, had those families come to our house, one at a time).  Each time i've known there's a risk associated, but my thought process has been that we'll quarantine ourselves for a week or so afterwards to reduce that risk.

I'm sure others are taking this a further extent.

[MookieMonstah]

Just now, JDBrocks said:

No, it's not fair. There's a minimum level of effort necessary for being informed. Checking sources is on that list. Should people be excused if they only get news from the National Enquirer or the Onion?

I don't think it's that simple. Yes I think everyone should make an effort to research. I already said I have no sympathy for the guy, he's an idiot.

[theJ]

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

People aren't "given information". They seek it out. He has the same internet connection you or I do with all of the same access to official information, but he chose to ignore all of that an pretend that this was a vast conspiracy to (presumably) destroy the economy to impact an election.

You have absolved him of any responsibility for being an informed citizen by saying he "was given information", which is completely at odds with how the US handles every single other adult responsibility. 

Yes and no.  But Google and Facebook and other sources of information do not give two people the same information.  Grab a friend and do an internet search on google using the same keywords.  You will get different results.  And most people don't go past the first page, they click on the first thing.  

The information you are given is targeted to you based on the information those sites have on you.  

Personally i think that's a disgusting perversion of privacy, but others will claim it gives you more accurate searches. 

 

I'll admit i'm guessing a little on the guys frame of mind.  I wasn't there.  But knowing how internet searches and targeted news work, i don't think my assumption is far off the mark.  The guy was likely getting news articles claiming that corona is a hoax and that the other facts and figures out there aren't true.  Or those facts and figures were at least downplayed.   

[theJ]

6 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

THESE ARE NOT OPINIONS. DEATH FROM CORONAVIRUS IS REAL.

Yeah, i know.

I'm not sure why you're coming at me.  I'm trying to educate you on why other people don't believe as you do, or why they might not believe the facts to which you are firmly rooted.

[JDBrocks]

4 hours ago, theJ said:

Yeah, i know.

I'm not sure why you're coming at me.  I'm trying to educate you on why other people don't believe as you do, or why they might not believe the facts to which you are firmly rooted.

Because it seems like you are approaching the subject as if opinions have a place in this conversation, and using that to justify the actions of others. I fully understand WHY people believe things that aren't true, I'm just not making excuses for them. Choices always have consequences, even if choices are made with bad information. 

I've already stated that I do have empathy for this guy, and anyone else that has to die alone. I've heard so many stories about nurses two blocks from my house getting into full PPE gear to go sit in patient rooms to hold hands with someone that is dying just so they aren't alone. It's effing heartbreaking. Watching my wife sob after shifts because they basically had to form a death decision panel when the worst of it was here in Chicago.

We can't, as a group, continue to try to justify people's decisions that are in direct contradiction to fact though. There is no reason that you or I, typing to each other on the internet, are better informed than someone else that thought the virus was a "hoax". None.

And before you start saying that I don't understand the power of targeted ads, I used to work for a data analytics company that developed ran algorithms on phone conversations for language, timbre, cadence, etc, tied the analytics to a phone number, and developed a profile that was used to connect people with customer service reps that had the most compatible personality. I know that data is used to manipulate people. It's not an excuse to have your head buried after at least half a million people have died.

I'm not really coming after you, I'm just frustrated that people continue to blame media for personal decisions that the vast majority of people aren't making because they are listening to science.

Edited July 14, 2020 by JDBrocks
typo

[ET80]

25 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

People aren't "given information". They seek it out.

Shut it down, we have a winner.

[theJ]

2 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

Because it seems like you are approaching the subject as if opinions have a place in this conversation, and using that to justify the actions of others. I fully understand WHY people people believe things that aren't true, I'm just not making excuses for them. Choices always have consequences, even if choices are made with bad information. 

I've already stated that I do have empathy for this guy, and anyone else that has to die alone. I've heard so many stories about nurses two blocks from my house getting into full PPE gear to go sit in patient rooms to hold hands with someone that is dying just so they aren't alone. It's effing heartbreaking. Watching my wife sob after shifts because they basically had to form a death decision panel when the worst of it was here in Chicago.

We can't, as a group, continue to try to justify people's decisions that are in direct contradiction to fact though. There is no reason that you or I, typing to each other on the internet, are better informed than someone else that thought the virus was a "hoax". None.

And before you start saying that I don't understand the power of targeted ads, I used to work for a data analytics company that developed ran algorithms on phone conversations for language, timbre, cadence, etc, tied the analytics to a phone number, and developed a profile that was used to connect people with customer service reps that had the most compatible personality. I know that data is used to manipulate people. It's not an excuse to have your head buried after at least half a million people have died.

I'm not really coming after you, I'm just frustrated that people continue to blame media for personal decisions that the vast majority of people aren't making because they are listening to science.

It's fine, you're allowed to vent a little.  This is a safe space, ha.

I'm coming at the subject from a macro level.  Please don't mistake that for justifying actions on an individual level.  On an individual level, i'm with you.  A person should arm themselves with information, on all levels.  But we know that most people aren't going to do that.  People in general, at a macro level, run with the first thing they see, for a variety of reasons.  They don't dig and dig and dig, and check sources.

IMO, if enough people would recognize the danger of media influence, we might actually be able to change that.  And that would have a far greater impact than trying to influence people on a micro level.

[theJ]

10 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Shut it down, we have a winner.

Do we? 

When you open Facebook, are you looking for specific information, or are you blasted in the face with it?

When you search for something on Google, does Google give you the most accurate search result, or the most accurate search result for you?