2021 NFL Draft Thread

[Jeremy408]

12 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

College stats are pretty meaningless, a lot of the top pass rushers in the NFL didn't have great sack production in college. 

Like who?

[Jeremy408]

9 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

One of the players that intrigues me the most is Azeez Ojulari. Interested to see his measurable's and workout numbers at his pro day next week. It seems like the biggest question mark about him is if he's big enough to play edge full time and hold up in run support. He was listed at 6'3" 240 by UGA last year but Khalil Mack was only 6'3" 251 with 33" arms at the combine and is a great run defender. Plus he's only 20 years old so he has time to grow into his frame.  

Yeah he’s one of the players I like

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, Jeremy408 said:

Like who?

For their entire college careers: 

JJ Watt - 11.5 sacks 

Danielle Hunter - 4.5 sacks

Deforest Buckner - 18 sacks 

JPP - 6.5 sacks

Cam Jordan - 16.5 sacks

 

[MrOaktown_56]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

One of the players that intrigues me the most is Azeez Ojulari. Interested to see his measurable's and workout numbers at his pro day next week. It seems like the biggest question mark about him is if he's big enough to play edge full time and hold up in run support. He was listed at 6'3" 240 by UGA last year but Khalil Mack was only 6'3" 251 with 33" arms at the combine and is a great run defender. Plus he's only 20 years old so he has time to grow into his frame.  

He is really good. Him and Paye are cleaner than Phillips in terms of medical.

[Jeremy408]

2 hours ago, NYRaider said:

For their entire college careers: 

JJ Watt - 11.5 sacks 

Danielle Hunter - 4.5 sacks

Deforest Buckner - 18 sacks 

JPP - 6.5 sacks

Cam Jordan - 16.5 sacks

 

JJ watt Is what happens when you have the perfect scheme fit for a defense and a player is willing to work hard(kwiti paye does not fit our defense)

Daniel Hunter didn’t come into the league lighting the league on fire he had to be developed for a year and they had pass rushers around him like everyone griffin

Buckner didn’t have production because he wasn’t playing defense of tackle until he got to the Niners

Pierre Paul is another case of a player that had to be developed his rookie year and then was surrounded by two Super Bowl pass rushers

Cameron Jordan had one sack his rookie year (if Kwiti paye gets one sack I can see everybody complaining about how Mike Mayock and John Gruden don’t know how to draft LOL)

 

[Mr Raider]

19 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

JJ watt Is what happens when you have the perfect scheme fit for a defense and a player is willing to work hard(kwiti paye does not fit our defense)

Daniel Hunter didn’t come into the league lighting the league on fire he had to be developed for a year and they had pass rushers around him like everyone griffin

Buckner didn’t have production because he wasn’t playing defense of tackle until he got to the Niners

Pierre Paul is another case of a player that had to be developed his rookie year and then was surrounded by two Super Bowl pass rushers

Cameron Jordan had one sack his rookie year (if Kwiti paye gets one sack I can see everybody complaining about how Mike Mayock and John Gruden don’t know how to draft LOL)

 

None of that really changes the point though right? Most of those things will be true for the next great players too. They will need to work hard, be put into a scheme that fits their skill sets, they need other good talent around them, good coaching, and they likely will get considerably better in year two, three, and four than they are as a rookie. Sure we want an impact player year one, but those are rare in general. We would gladly take any of those guys on our team long term. Even if they don't light the world on fire year one. 

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, Mr Raider said:

None of that really changes the point though right? Most of those things will be true for the next great players too. They will need to work hard, be put into a scheme that fits their skill sets, they need other good talent around them, good coaching, and they likely will get considerably better in year two, three, and four than they are as a rookie. Sure we want an impact player year one, but those are rare in general. We would gladly take any of those guys on our team long term. Even if they don't light the world on fire year one. 

But I think what I’m getting at is that paye is the type of player that people on this forum will look back at him a year from now and talk about how Mayock and Gruden don’t know how to draft because the fact that he needs more time to develop And isn’t going to produce his rookie year.

[G]

On 3/10/2021 at 7:40 PM, Rich7sena said:

I won.

I understand both posters thoughts on this, but I also think like Rick on this. I'm not enthused with the pass rushers this year with our current system because of their size, (Azeez/Roche) production (Paye/Basham/Oweh/Phillips)  or lack of playing long ( Rousseau) which has the boom/bust that doesn't scream production right away and is a situational pass rusher. I don't see any rookie beating out our vets this year so a waste of a pick. A Tackle at 17 will start and probably have some growing pains but more success. LB Parsons can add pass rush, pop and be a leader on our D. collins too but at 17 I'd rather not take Collins there. Our 2nd is a FS. Holland would also help our nickel if we don't trust Amik yet. Hoping Hooker in FA and Holland at 48. If we went Tackle at 17 and Collins and Holland are there I probably go Collins and a S in 3rd if Hooker is on the roster.

I expect a pass rusher (Ingram) and DT or two (Short and Hankins) and a safety (Hooker) all before the draft. Probably a Guard too (Good) and Parker penciled in at RT. Would love a 6 million stop gap like Reiff but probably to little to get him.

If FA goes down like that I go !st) LB Parsons or a Tackle especially if I can trade down. I think 48 is too late unless we reach on Spencer Brown who I think goes in the 3rd. 2nd) Holland or best FS on the board.

3rd is Oline depth (C/G) unless we didn't get our S. a DT would also be good.

4th is NT if no DT yet or Oline if not yet. Possible second Saftey if someone fell like Nasirildeen.  

Fill 'needs' in FA and draft the 'studs' like Parsons/Holland then get 'depth' and PROFIT!!!

[Jeremy408]

6 minutes ago, G said:

I understand both posters thoughts on this, but I also think like Rick on this. I'm not enthused with the pass rushers this year with our current system because of their size, (Azeez/Roche) production (Paye/Basham/Oweh/Phillips)  or lack of playing long ( Rousseau) which has the boom/bust that doesn't scream production right away and is a situational pass rusher. I don't see any rookie beating out our vets this year so a waste of a pick. A Tackle at 17 will start and probably have some growing pains but more success. LB Parsons can add pass rush, pop and be a leader on our D. collins too but at 17 I'd rather not take Collins there. Our 2nd is a FS. Holland would also help our nickel if we don't trust Amik yet. Hoping Hooker in FA and Holland at 48. If we went Tackle at 17 and Collins and Holland are there I probably go Collins and a S in 3rd if Hooker is on the roster.

I expect a pass rusher (Ingram) and DT or two (Short and Hankins) and a safety (Hooker) all before the draft. Probably a Guard too (Good) and Parker penciled in at RT. Would love a 6 million stop gap like Reiff but probably to little to get him.

If FA goes down like that I go !st) LB Parsons or a Tackle especially if I can trade down. I think 48 is too late unless we reach on Spencer Brown who I think goes in the 3rd. 2nd) Holland or best FS on the board.

3rd is Oline depth (C/G) unless we didn't get our S. a DT would also be good.

4th is NT if no DT yet or Oline if not yet. Possible second Saftey if someone fell like Nasirildeen.  

Fill 'needs' in FA and draft the 'studs' like Parsons/Holland then get 'depth' and PROFIT!!!

I actually want to see Brandon Parker compete for a job at right tackle next year

[Rich7sena]

1 hour ago, Jeremy408 said:

JJ watt Is what happens when you have the perfect scheme fit for a defense and a player is willing to work hard(kwiti paye does not fit our defense)

Daniel Hunter didn’t come into the league lighting the league on fire he had to be developed for a year and they had pass rushers around him like everyone griffin

Buckner didn’t have production because he wasn’t playing defense of tackle until he got to the Niners

Pierre Paul is another case of a player that had to be developed his rookie year and then was surrounded by two Super Bowl pass rushers

Cameron Jordan had one sack his rookie year (if Kwiti paye gets one sack I can see everybody complaining about how Mike Mayock and John Gruden don’t know how to draft LOL)

 

I don't see how any of this is relevant. College sack production is really not that important. There have also been plenty of productive players who ended up not being good at all (see DeMarcus Walker, Vic Beasley, Shilique Calhoun).

And insinuating Watt is a system player is absurd. He is a Hall of Fame talent who would have been successful on any team he ended up with provided he stayed healthy.

[Jeremy408]

1 minute ago, Rich7sena said:

I don't see how any of this is relevant. College sack production is really not that important. There have also been plenty of productive players who ended up not being good at all (see DeMarcus Walker, Vic Beasley, Shilique Calhoun).

And insinuating Watt is a system player is absurd. He is a Hall of Fame talent who would have been successful on any team he ended up with provided he stayed healthy.

Beasley led the league in sacks with 16.5 one year and had 8 in 2019. Shilique Calhoun and Demarcus Walker had some of the worst film I’ve ever seen for a pass rushers. I’m not saying that stats is everything the film still has to back it up. But I think if your film is good in college your statistics should be relatively good as well. That’s my issue with Kwiti paye. 
 

and let me make this clear by no means am I saying that JJ Watt is a system player. He’s clearly a Hall of Fame talent. What I’m saying is he is a case of when a player continues to work and also ends up somewhere where his talent work and the scheme fits together. A perfect example of this is Patrick Mahomes he could’ve gone somewhere else and not had the type of coach to work with his talent but luckily for him he got Andy Reid who is able to coach the talent that was already there and he also worked his tail off and was able to sit for a year. Sometimes the situation is just as important as the players ability is what I’m saying. 

[Rich7sena]

3 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Beasley led the league in sacks with 16.5 one year and had 8 in 2019. Shilique Calhoun and Demarcus Walker had some of the worst film I’ve ever seen for a pass rushers. I’m not saying that stats is everything the film still has to back it up. But I think if your film is good in college your statistics should be relatively good as well. That’s my issue with Kwiti paye. 
 

and let me make this clear by no means am I saying that JJ Watt is a system player. He’s clearly a Hall of Fame talent. What I’m saying is he is a case of when a player continues to work and also ends up somewhere where his talent work and the scheme fits together. A perfect example of this is Patrick Mahomes he could’ve gone somewhere else and not had the type of coach to work with his talent but luckily for him he got Andy Reid who is able to coach the talent that was already there and he also worked his tail off and was able to sit for a year. Sometimes the situation is just as important as the players ability is what I’m saying. 

Kwity Paye has good cutups. He is looks extremely quick and agile and will probably test incredibly well. You also have to look at where he lines up. He's so often head up on a tackle with a rusher outside of him. He's not a 4 or 5 tech. He's a 6-9 tech. Gary suffered the same fate. Their numbers were suppressed because they were playing roles that don't produce big sack numbers.

And Beasley hasn't been a good player in the NFL, even when he had his 16.5 sack or 8 sack season. Those numbers weren't sustainable because he isn't that type of player. And I disagree on Calhoun, I thought he would be much better in the NFL.

[Jeremy408]

5 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

Kwity Paye has good cutups. He is looks extremely quick and agile and will probably test incredibly well. You also have to look at where he lines up. He's so often head up on a tackle with a rusher outside of him. He's not a 4 or 5 tech. He's a 6-9 tech. Gary suffered the same fate. Their numbers were suppressed because they were playing roles that don't produce big sack numbers.

And Beasley hasn't been a good player in the NFL, even when he had his 16.5 sack or 8 sack season. Those numbers weren't sustainable because he isn't that type of player. And I disagree on Calhoun, I thought he would be much better in the NFL.

The reason why scouts and mock drafts are so high on Cody pay is because he’s going to test the well which is ridiculous for his size realistically he’s more suitable for a 3-4 which we don’t run. 
 

Don’t get me wrong I didn’t say Beasley was consistent but he led the NFL in sacks with 16.5. You don’t do that by accident. With Calhoun a lot of his sacks came from the fact  that he went up against quarterbacks that held the ball way too long. Even in the third round I was not a fan of us taking him.

[Rich7sena]

4 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

The reason why scouts and mock drafts are so high on Cody pay is because he’s going to test the well which is ridiculous for his size realistically he’s more suitable for a 3-4 which we don’t run. 
 

Don’t get me wrong I didn’t say Beasley was consistent but he led the NFL in sacks with 16.5. You don’t do that by accident. With Calhoun a lot of his sacks came from the fact  that he went up against quarterbacks that held the ball way too long. Even in the third round I was not a fan of us taking him.

Kwity Paye would play 3-4 OLB or 4-3 end. He is an NFL edge. He is not a 3-4 end or a defensive tackle. And I don't like him just because he will test well. I think that's a reductive statement

Edited March 13, 2021 by Rich7sena

[Jeremy408]

31 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

Kwity Paye would play 3-4 OLB or 4-3 end. He is an NFL edge. He is not a 3-4 end or a defensive tackle. And I don't like him just because he will test well. I think that's a reductive statement

I don’t really see 3-4 outside linebackers at almost 275 as well as 4-3 ends anymore. I never said defensive tackle. He’s too undersized to play that. In Clelin Ferrell is already gonna play the oversized end in Gus Bradley’s system so it doesn’t make sense really to get Paye(at least not this year it doesn’t ), the same is true for drafting a linebacker in the 1st round this year. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Jeremy408