Who is on the "hottest" of seats going into 2020?

[winitall]

6 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I don't even understand what you are arguing. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Gundy was actively trying to antagonize his players like he did, but it's clear that his conduct was totally unacceptable. And it's perfectly reasonable for other people who are just now finding out about everything that has gone on at OSU to be critical of that conduct, regardless of what Gundy has done since this story exploded.

This is well said. Personally, I’m going to be more critical of his conduct given his recent priors. I can pretty easily see where someone that refers to COVID-19 as the “Chinese Virus” could say and do things that are racially insensitive and unacceptable, even if it is not intended to be offensive. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I personally read that as "actively antagonizing", so that's what I was stating. I think that there's a major difference between "ignorance" and "racism". Unfortunately, the climate/era that we live in lends itself to skepticism of people evolving. For example, did a politician "evolve" on LGBT issues, or did they decide 4 months before reelection that it was a great way to pander for votes? Applying this to the Gundy situation, same question. Do you believe that he is apologetic/a hypocrite because he's "in trouble" or because of public perception, or because he's evolving and starting to understand some of these ignorant things that have been unintentional?

You are conflating intent and conduct.

[ramssuperbowl99]

4 minutes ago, winitall said:

This is well said. Personally, I’m going to be more critical of his conduct given his recent priors. I can pretty easily see where someone that refers to COVID-19 as the “Chinese Virus” could say and do things that are racially insensitive and unacceptable, even if it is not intended to be offensive. 

And I don't disagree with people being more or less lenient based on prior conduct.The puzzle pieces that Gundy has chosen to make publicly available isn't the whole puzzle, but it's also not a pretty picture so far.

 

[MWil23]

3 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

You are conflating intent and conduct.

I think it's important to differentiate between intent and conduct. One deserves the benefit of the doubt/rehabilitation and one doesn't IMO. For example, Iowa's recent strength/conditioning coach appears to have a major track record of systematic discrimination, whereas Gundy appears to be more generally unaware and unintentionally insensitive. Does that make it right? ABSOLUTELY NOT. IMO there is a difference, though.

[ramssuperbowl99]

Just now, MWil23 said:

I think it's important to differentiate between intent and conduct. One deserves the benefit of the doubt/rehabilitation and one doesn't IMO. For example, Iowa's recent strength/conditioning coach appears to have a major track record of systematic discrimination, whereas Gundy appears to be more generally unaware and unintentionally insensitive. Does that make it right? ABSOLUTELY NOT. IMO there is a difference, though.

That difference does nothing to change what he's done. Mike Gundy might learn from this and be inclusive, I hope he does, but even if there is sincere growth, that doesn't un-ring the bell that he rang over and over and over.

The conduct, intentional or not, was discriminatory and damaging to OSU. They're well within their rights to (and IMO, should) fire Gundy as a result of his conduct on its own. And if it really is ignorance, I hope he learns from it and gets a second chance. But a second chance doesn't have to be immediate, at the same level and at the same job. 

[MWil23]

11 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

That difference does nothing to change what he's done. Mike Gundy might learn from this and be inclusive, I hope he does, but even if there is sincere growth, that doesn't un-ring the bell that he rang over and over and over.

The conduct, intentional or not, was discriminatory and damaging to OSU. They're well within their rights to (and IMO, should) fire Gundy as a result of his conduct on its own. And if it really is ignorance, I hope he learns from it and gets a second chance. But a second chance doesn't have to be immediate, at the same level and at the same job. 

They're well within their rights to do so and may choose to go down that route. Proving "with cause" will be a tough task in court, so I'd imagine a separate settlement will be reached by both parties. Gundy would want to continue his career/rebuild his public image and OK State would want to save millions and try to dodge the firestorm as much as possible.

[Oregon Ducks]

4 hours ago, MWil23 said:

I personally read that as "actively antagonizing", so that's what I was stating. I think that there's a major difference between "ignorance" and "racism". Unfortunately, the climate/era that we live in lends itself to skepticism of people evolving. For example, did a politician "evolve" on LGBT issues, or did they decide 4 months before reelection that it was a great way to pander for votes? Applying this to the Gundy situation, same question. Do you believe that he is apologetic/a hypocrite because he's "in trouble" or because of public perception, or because he's evolving and starting to understand some of these ignorant things that have been unintentional?

To be honest, I think people would be shocked at how almost every college coach in the nation, D1-D3, treats their "student athletes". My coach treated me like a piece of meat, used me up, then discarded me. We broke the "20 hour rule" every week for my 4 years there, he tried to pull my scholarship as a senior when I elected to get rotator cuff surgery/missed 90% of my senior season, cut 1/2 of the kids he offered scholarships to, voiding their scholarship (contingent upon making the squad in fine print) and forcing them to pay out of state tuition for an entire semester at a private university, called a professor to get a grade changed for our All American DH, which then happened 45 minutes later so as he wouldn't be ineligible...the list goes on.

TBH, most of us will never know what goes on/what these coaches' motivations/character actually is.

And I hope that changes. The culture is toxic so it needs to be called out when something becomes public. I'm glad student-athletes are speaking up about it. 

[naptownskinsfan]

13 hours ago, MWil23 said:

To be honest, if we are talking about head coaches in College FB who are "great men" and "great coaches", then the list starts and ends with Tom Osbourne. Today, Harbaugh and Pat Fitzgerald are the two coaches I'd absolutely "let my son play for" as men. I'm in the minority here, but I love Dabo and Gundy as well, barring something that comes about that is blatantly to the contrary of everything I know/have been informed of speaking to what few contacts in the College FB/the coaching circuit who I personally know.

I would put Mark Richt on that list too.  Probably to his detriment, since word outside and inside the program was that he was too easy on his players and they weren't ready for the big games.  

Also, I want to thank everyone for handling this discussion well today.  

[NateDawg]

I like Gundy and his mullet.  These kids need to drop the entitlement and belief that you can't have different beliefs then them.  Free speech be welcome on both ends. 

[catcheryea]

crazy that its always the ohio state fans popping up with ****ty takes

[MWil23]

6 hours ago, catcheryea said:

crazy that its always the ohio state fans popping up with ****ty takes

Next time quote me please

7 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

I would put Mark Richt on that list too.  Probably to his detriment, since word outside and inside the program was that he was too easy on his players and they weren't ready for the big games.  
 

Absolutely! As a person, Mark Richt was hard to beat. Ty Willingham, and a few others that weren’t great coaches too.

7 hours ago, naptownskinsfan said:

Also, I want to thank everyone for handling this discussion well today.  

Well we had a good run while it lasted

[winitall]

I would link to the newspaper clippings that are going around on it, but they contain the racial remarks. In short, 4 Colorado players after a game in 1989 said that Gundy was using racial slurs. 

[MWil23]

1 hour ago, winitall said:

I would link to the newspaper clippings that are going around on it, but they contain the racial remarks. In short, 4 Colorado players after a game in 1989 said that Gundy was using racial slurs. 

He's gone.

Between Gundy and Mason Rudolph, OK State QB's have quite the track record of racism towards defensive ends.

[ramssuperbowl99]

2 hours ago, winitall said:

I would link to the newspaper clippings that are going around on it, but they contain the racial remarks. In short, 4 Colorado players after a game in 1989 said that Gundy was using racial slurs. 

At the time, Gundy denied doing it too. 

Dead man walking.

[MWil23]

28 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

At the time, Gundy denied doing it too. 

Dead man walking.

There's irony, there's comedic irony, and then there's OK State alum Doug Gottlieb (who had his own checkered past, albeit "just" credit card theft/fraud) having OK State alum Brandon Weeden on his show to vouch for former OK State QB Mason Rudolph under OK State alum/QB/Coach Gundy's program and the use of that same word.