ET80 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 7 hours ago, tyler735 said: I mean 3 of those guys are in contention for best at their position (I suppose 4 if you count Hill as a gadget)...Not really a farfetched statement, but hit me with that salt lol Well... then Sean Payton is the Jared Goff of coaches if this is the case. He's holding a fantastic team back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 1 hour ago, ET80 said: Well... then Sean Payton is the Jared Goff of coaches if this is the case. He's holding a fantastic team back. Nah having 3 guys in the running for best at their position is far from a guarantee to win a Superbowl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Nah having 3 guys in the running for best at their position is far from a guarantee to win a Superbowl It's probably the most stacked deck when compared to the rest of the field. It's not like the Saints have a Brady/Belicheck standing in their way in the NFC, and it's not like the rest of the team is falling apart at the seams (Marshawn Lattimore, Drew Brees) but it's been a while since we saw this team make the SB. When you have three "best [insert position here]" along with a stellar supporting cast and a conference without a true alpha dog? You should be at least GOING to SBs - but the Saints have been to as many SBs as the Texans since the 2010 season. I can only figure that's on coaching. Feel free to correct me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ET80 said: It's probably the most stacked deck when compared to the rest of the field. It's not like the Saints have a Brady/Belicheck standing in their way in the NFC, and it's not like the rest of the team is falling apart at the seams (Marshawn Lattimore, Drew Brees) but it's been a while since we saw this team make the SB. When you have three "best [insert position here]" along with a stellar supporting cast and a conference without a true alpha dog? You should be at least GOING to SBs - but the Saints have been to as many SBs as the Texans since the 2010 season. I can only figure that's on coaching. Feel free to correct me. Saints have a great chance. No doubt. Hence their dominant regular season records the past 4 years since acquiring most of these players. Don't think people would say in recent years guys like Mike Tomlin or Sean Mcvay have held their team back. Having multiple players that can be argued for best at their position is no guarantee to win a Superbowl. Rams have Donald and Ramsey that's 2 for sure that have arguments for best at their position. The Rams haven't won a Super Bowl in quite some time. For years the Steelers had AB, Leveon Bell, and Pouncey (and possibly even Decastro) that were in the running for All Pro and could be argued as best at their positions. Zero super bowls together though. Making the Super Bowl is no easy task and the Saints were 1 bad call (that changed the rulebook) away from making it to the Super Bowl. They have been consistently among the top teams in the league the past several years. Edited January 3, 2021 by tyler735 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 10 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Saints have a great chance. No doubt. Hence their dominant regular season records the past 4 years since acquiring most of these players. Regular Season Ws are reserved for teams that aren't elite. You can tout them as a plus, but it's not what we look at when you measure the best of the best. 11 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Don't think people would say in recent years guys like Mike Tomlin or Sean Mcvay have held their team back. No, Jared Goff holds the Rams back (I think I've been very clear on my stance on that). An aging Ben Roethlensberger holds the Steelers back. Are you going on record to say that Drew Brees held you back? 13 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Having multiple players that can be argued for best at their position is no guarantee to win a Superbowl. Rams have Donald and Ramsey that's 2 for sure that have arguments for best at their position. The Rams haven't won a Super Bowl I'm quite some time 13 minutes ago, tyler735 said: For years the Steelers had AB, Leveon Bell, and Pouncey (and possibly even Decastro) that were in the running for All Pro and could be argued as best at their positions. Zero super bowls together though. 16 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Making the Super Bowl is no easy task and the Saints were 1 bad call (that changed the rulebook) away from making it to the Super Bowl. They have been consistently among the top teams in the league the past several years. But that one call didn't end the game - there was an entire OT that could have made that ruling a footnote. Saints didn't capitalize. I get it that it's not easy, but again - it's been 10 years. It's not like there's a dominant team in that space to prevent the Saints, either (like how everyone in the AFC had Brady standing in the way). Given the setup you're bringing up, the Saints SHOULD have been that dominant team. But, they never did. Why? That's all I'm asking, ultimately. With this talent, why haven't the Saints done more? Is that not underachieving to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, ET80 said: Regular Season Ws are reserved for teams that aren't elite. You can tout them as a plus, but it's not what we look at when you measure the best of the best. Me claiming that 3 guys are arguably the best at their position (not one of them being a QB mind you) isn't me saying the Saints are some GOAT dynasty. They have tons of talent on their roster and are consistently one of the best records in football. Quote No, Jared Goff holds the Rams back (I think I've been very clear on my stance on that). I too have been very clear on my stance on Goff 🤣 Quote An aging Ben Roethlensberger holds the Steelers back. Ben was aging 5+ years ago with all that talent on those Pittsburgh teams? Crazy he is still a starting QB if that's the case. Pittsburgh must really be struggling with him now 😉 Quote Are you going on record to say that Drew Brees held you back? No just some bad luck in the playoffs. It is what it is. We've been in position to win games the past 3 years including games where Brees has put us in position to win (Minneapolis Miracle comes to mind). Often times playoffs come down to some lucky bounces here and there. The Saints have had them go their way in the past and have won a Super Bowl (with this coach/QB) much like just about any other Super Bowl winner has to have some luck to go all the way. Quote Yeah they pretty much fit the exact criteria. Ben won years before the aforementioned steller group of talent was together. Quote But that one call didn't end the game - there was an entire OT that could have made that ruling a footnote. Saints didn't capitalize. They did what needed to be done for there not to be an OT and the refs truly blew it. There is no denying that. Sure in theory they Saints could have won in OT, but the bigger point is there shouldn't have been an OT the game should have been over. Quote I get it that it's not easy, but again - it's been 10 years. It's not like there's a dominant team in that space to prevent the Saints, either (like how everyone in the AFC had Brady standing in the way). Given the setup you're bringing up, the Saints SHOULD have been that dominant team. But, they never did. Why? That's all I'm asking, ultimately. With this talent, why haven't the Saints done more? Is that not underachieving to you? Sure I'd like to see them do more in the playoffs, but it just hasn't worked out. How often do you see a play like the Minneapolis Miracle to end a game after taking the lead to close out a game? That's not on Brees, he put them in a spot to win. That's not on Payton, he put them in a spot to win. Marcus Williams had one of the biggest blunders in recent memory on his "tackle" attempt of Diggs. Without that the Saints are in back to back NFC championship games. We already touched upon the blown Rams call, but without that the Saints are in a Super Bowl. Last year was the only recent playoff game I view as a true let down in the loss to the Vikings in terms of how my team played. They should have played better in that one. The previous 2 games they battled and 2 iconic plays killed their chances. I don't put that on Brees or Payton. They had their team in position to win right down to the wire. Edited January 3, 2021 by tyler735 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 On 12/31/2020 at 12:52 AM, GamedayGuru said: Well if you wanna talk about efficiency let’s take a look. Here are rush yards per attempt, receiving yards per attempt, total yards per attempt. Kamara Rush 5 Rec 8.7 Touch 6.2 Henry Rush 4.9 Rec 9.1 Touch 5.1 Cook Rush 4.8 Rec 8.6 Touch 5.4 Mcaffrey Rush 4.6 Rec 8.4 Touch 5.8 also if you want to talk about volume Kamara 6164 yards on 998 touches 58 touchdowns Henry 6302 yards on 1224 touches 56 touchdowns Cook 4936 yards on 917 touches 35 touchdowns Mcaffrey 5817 yards on 1002 45 touchdowns also should add Henry has been in the league 1 year longer than the other 3. It’s already been explained to you why trying to use total yards/touch is disingenuous. A believe a couple times by a couple different people. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 On 12/31/2020 at 1:05 AM, GamedayGuru said: That’s one year, over their careers kamara absolutely destroys CMC in every category. You did say the way you grade is efficiency and volume correct? In that case it clearly points to kamara as the better back. Mind telling me which of your stats points towards mcaffrey? Because it appears Kamara is both more efficient, while also having a higher volume. Huh? CMC was better in 18 and 19. He was hurt this year. What #s are you looking at? Please don’t say career #s, please don’t say career #s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 On 12/28/2020 at 12:01 AM, tyler735 said: Well aware of what it is, I just find it entertaining you pick and choose what is important in terms of "stats" only if it will help your attempt at an argument. So touchdowns don't matter, but adot is essential lol. Who cares about historic amount of catches and league leading receiving yards because adot lol. Nah. Less ypc: 2019 McCaffrey- 4.8 2020 McCaffrey- 3.8 2020 Kamara- 5.0 Less yards per reception: 2019 McCaffrey- 8.7 2020 McCaffrey- 8.8 2020 Kamara- 9.1 Less touchdowns: 2019 McCaffrey- 15 rushing touchdowns, 4 receiving touchdowns (19 total touchdowns) 2020 Kamara- 16 rushing touchdowns, 5 receiving touchdowns (21 total touchdowns *15 games*) Less efficient breaking tackles: 2019 McCaffrey- 16 broken tackles rushing on 287 rushes. 14 broken tackles receiving on 116 receptions. 30 broken tackles on 403 touches 2020 Kamara- 15 broken tackles rushing on 187 rushes. 15 broken tackles receiving on 83 receptions. 30 broken tackles on 270 touches Less efficient when targeted: 2019 McCaffrey- 99.7 QB Rating when targeted 2020 Kamara- 107.8 QB Rating when targeted McCaffrey is one of my favorite RB's in the NFL (was pretty much driving the McCaffrey bandwagon on this forum during the draft process with the elite NFL projections I gave him with many disagreeing saying Fournette was the better option), so this isn't to bring him down, I think he is right up with the best and would respect an argument if someone felt he is the best and would certainly say "he is in the discussion". Just showing that Kamara has been a bit more efficient in different areas despite McCaffrey having the bulk numbers in terms of total yardage. Both are elite, which is where preference and the "eye test" comes into play. You’re trying to use a year that CMC has played 3 games. Really? And once again you’re trying to separate efficiency and volume, when really the best runners have both. 300 carries at 4.8 ypc is so much more impressive than 100 at 5.5. also, by your criteria, Nick Chubb is a better run than Kamala, right? Way more broken tackles and better effeciency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: You’re trying to use a year that CMC has played 3 games. Really? And once again you’re trying to separate efficiency and volume, when really the best runners have both. 300 carries at 4.8 ypc is so much more impressive than 100 at 5.5. also, by your criteria, Nick Chubb is a better run than Kamala, right? Way more broken tackles and better effeciency. Just there for reference doesn't take away from the bigger picture in my comparison. Also you had no problem bringng up Michael Thomas's stats this year when he was clearly injured in another thread. Try to stay consistent at least lol How is Chubb as a receiver? Edited January 3, 2021 by tyler735 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 1 minute ago, tyler735 said: How is Chubb as a receiver? GREAT question. 9.4 yards per catch. More than Kamara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said: GREAT question. 9.4 yards per catch. More than Kamara. Okay now for the fun part. Chubb has an average of 8.0 yards per catch in his career. A career total of 577 receiving yards, and 2 career receiving touchdowns. Or in other words, pretty much every individual season of Kamara's receiving numbers are better than Chubbs's career catching the ball both in terms of numbers and efficiency. Kamara has had 2 game stretches this season that pretty much eclipse every bit of Chubb's 2020 receiving numbers in terms of efficiency and bulk totals. Are you trying to say that McCaffrey's bulk numbers are that far ahead of Kamara's...Like Kamara's receiving numbers are to Chubbs in this example that was just provided? 🤣 If so, just quit while you are behind. May be best to step away again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Okay now for the fun part. Chubb has an average of 8.0 yards per catch in his career. A career total of 577 receiving yards, and 2 career receiving touchdowns. Or in other words, pretty much every individual season of Kamara's receiving numbers are better than Chubbs's career catching the ball both in terms of numbers and efficiency. Kamara has had 2 game stretches this season that pretty much eclipse every bit of Chubb's 2020 receiving numbers in terms of efficiency and bulk totals. Are you trying to say that McCaffrey's bulk numbers are that far ahead of Kamara's...Like Kamara's receiving numbers are to Chubbs in this example that was just provided? 🤣 If so, just quit while you are behind. May be best to step away again Wow, wow , wow... I’m just playing by the rules you set. Volume didn’t matter when it was cmc vs kamara, now it does all of a sudden? It can’t be both ways, it either matter or it doesn’t. So you can choose if it does or doesn’t, it really doesn’t matter cause kamaras gonna lose either argument. You can’t win on either front, I think you know that and you’re too passionate (see, I can be nice and use the gentler word) to admit it. Although I am enjoying you trying to play both sides. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: Wow, wow , wow... I’m just playing by the rules you set. Volume didn’t matter when it was cmc vs kamara, now it does all of a sudden? It can’t be both ways, it either matter or it doesn’t. So you can choose if it does or doesn’t, it really doesn’t matter cause kamaras gonna lose either argument. You can’t win on either front, I think you know that and you’re too passionate (see, I can be nice and use the gentler word) to admit it. Although I am enjoying you trying to play both sides. This was already addressed with your attempt at bringing up Jerious Norwood. I have never said it's all efficiency or all bulk stats. I've noted that Kamara is top 3 in scrimmage yards, 1st in touchdowns, and has some excellent efficiency stats to boot. Nice try though. Not sure if you're intentionally being obtuse or at least I hope that is the case... Gonna have to do better than that. Talk about the pot trying to call the kettle black. You have yet to provide a real argument. I can play extremes too. Hey everyone GSU thinks Frank Gore is the 3rd best RB in NFL history. He has the 3rd most yards so he must be the 3rd best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 Just now, tyler735 said: This was already addressed with your attempt at bringing up Jerious Norwood. I have never said it's all efficiency or all bulk stats. I've noted that Kamara is top 3 in scrimmage yards, 1st in touchdowns, and has some excellent efficiency stats to boot. Nice try though. Not sure if you're intentionally being obtuse or at least I hope that is the case... Gonna have to do better than that. Talk about the pot trying to call the kettle black. You have yet to provide a real argument. I can play extremes too. Hey everyone GSU thinks Frank Gore is the 3rd best RB in NFL history. He has the 3rd most yards so he must be the 3rd best. Actually I’ve been extremely clear what I look at, I said it like 5 times in one post when you were trying to ignore it. Volume and efficiency together. Why are you trying to lie? and I specifically asked you what you’re look at in cmc vs kamara. You told me , and then it was extremely easy to see that kamara wasn’t even the best in the categories you said (at least 2 out of the 3). But now that cmc isn’t involved, volume is back to mattering. kamara isn’t going to win a debate against cmc when volume (and efficiency together) matters. He won’t win an argument against Chubb (and likely others) where volume doesn’t matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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