Is Alvin Kamara the best Running Back in the NFL? (Part 2)

[MrOaktown_56]

If you want to compare Henry and Kamara, receiving makes it more complicated. Kamara is such a weapon as a pass catcher. But Henry is absolutely dominant as a runner. I'd take Henry, but it's very close.

[Jakuvious]

17 hours ago, Raves said:

I mean isn't everything a team/situational accomplishment, even Henry's almost 1700 yards on the ground?  I mean it's not like he's the one calling plays and providing the blocks for him to constantly get to the second level.

Some moreso than others. TDs are inherently a very circumstantial individual stat, as they require a number of conditions outside of that players control to even be possible, with the exception of very long TDs. Scoring 6 TDs in one game requires a good enough surrounding offense for 6 TDs to even be possible, it requires good enough opposition for your team to need to continue to try to score TDs, and it requires that player specifically to be given the opportunities to get those TDs. It's how you get weird outlier seasons and games for TDs, as well. That year Calvin only scored 5 TDs but was stopped at the 1 yard line like 9 times or whatever it was. Tony Gonzalez had a 2 TD season in his prime, in a good offense, because we had like double the rushing TDs to passing TDs. And on the flip side you have Jonas Gray with a 4 TD game in his belt. Much comes down to opportunity, circumstance, and play calling.

The best way, IMO, to show this, is how many people are saying it is Payton's fault, not Kamara's, that Kamara got 6 TDs, not 7. That TD that Taysom Hill got isn't seen as a testament to how good Hill is. Kamara getting 6 TDs, not 7, does not make it a lesser game or him a lesser player. It is seen as 100% a situation of play calling and opportunity. If they had chose to get Kamara TD #7, they could have. It just wasn't necessary. But the same goes for the TDs he did get. If they had given the ball to Murray, instead, on one of the TDs, Kamara didn't play worse or isn't a lesser player, he just got one less shot. And on the flip side, a big part of why he got 6, is because he got 6+ shots. That just doesn't normally happen.

I framed my post the way I did because I knew people would come in and try to use this as proof that Kamara is the best back in the league, when in reality, were the same opportunities given to a number of other backs, they could have replicated the feat. Could any back have done it? No, Kamara is obviously very good. But 5 of the 6 were within the 10. Henry, CMC, etc., could have capitalized on that as well.

And I know this better than most, because I have, on at least two occasions, seen a Chiefs back have the chance to get this record, and get benched. Jamaal Charles, against the Raiders in 2013, had 5 TDs through about 40 minutes, when he got benched. His backup rushed for a TD, and a backup TE caught a 6 yard TD pass after his benching. And then in 2004, the Chiefs rushed for 8 TDs against the Falcons. All were short yardage TDs. But the Falcons didn't put up anything resembling an effort, so all carries in the last 20 minutes or so were given to the FB, Tony Richardson, and the backup, Derrick Blaylock. Blaylock got 4 rushing TDs under 8 yards, with 3 coming under 3 yards. Either Holmes or Blaylock could've realistically set the record that day, if they were given full access to the goalline touches.

The point is not to pimp some Chiefs players here, but to say if in 19 years of being a fan of one team, there's been two times a Chief could have set the record if the coach had handled things differently or the other team had scored more points, I'm sure there are many other cases around the league. I actually remember one on the other side, where Portis got his 6th potential TD vultured by Rueben Droughns, against us. That was a less fun day.

And really, Forge said more succinctly below what I'm really trying to get at.

10 hours ago, Forge said:

I feel absolutely no different about Kamara as a player today than I did yesterday before the game just because of this performance. It's a cool feather in the hat kind of thing, but it's a random one off type thing as well. 

It isn't something Kamara did because he's so much better at scoring TDs than anyone else. He's no different a player now than he was before. It's neat, but it's really a fortune of circumstance, that he took advantage of.

[tyler735]

 

[Scoundrel]

48 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

 

Why’d they cut it off at 06? In 05 Larry Johnson and Shaun Alexander bested 21. And LT had 20 plus 3 passing TDs.

[Riftty]

3 hours ago, Counselor said:

Why’d they cut it off at 06? In 05 Larry Johnson and Shaun Alexander bested 21. And LT had 20 plus 3 passing TDs.

Make the list more impressive looking would be my guess. 

[tyler735]

6 hours ago, Counselor said:

Why’d they cut it off at 06? In 05 Larry Johnson and Shaun Alexander bested 21. And LT had 20 plus 3 passing TDs.

Suppose that it would be a little strange to include the past 16 seasons by going to 2005, instead of last 15 seasons like they did? Obviously makes it look a bit more impressive going past 15 seasons as well.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

8 hours ago, Counselor said:

Why’d they cut it off at 06? In 05 Larry Johnson and Shaun Alexander bested 21. And LT had 20 plus 3 passing TDs.

PFF has been charting since 2006. Probably just checked via their database.

But yeah, they could have easily extended it further. It's not a complicated stat to look up elsewhere. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by TecmoSuperJoe

[GSUeagles14]

On 12/25/2020 at 10:11 PM, Tk3 said:

I stand by my opinion that Henry is the best traditional runningback, and Kamara is the best receiving back, and that its okay to rank them both as if they are different positions

If one guy rushes 350-400 times and barely catches the ball, its a different class of player than one who rushes 200+ times and is targeted 100+ times

It's weird that in 2020 we still classify them both as running backs.. One is a running back and one is like.. a flex player or something and we need to be more comfortable calling them different things

I believe ive asked this before but whats your case for kamara over cmc as a receiving back? 

[GSUeagles14]

14 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Some moreso than others. TDs are inherently a very circumstantial individual stat, as they require a number of conditions outside of that players control to even be possible, with the exception of very long TDs. Scoring 6 TDs in one game requires a good enough surrounding offense for 6 TDs to even be possible, it requires good enough opposition for your team to need to continue to try to score TDs, and it requires that player specifically to be given the opportunities to get those TDs. It's how you get weird outlier seasons and games for TDs, as well. That year Calvin only scored 5 TDs but was stopped at the 1 yard line like 9 times or whatever it was. Tony Gonzalez had a 2 TD season in his prime, in a good offense, because we had like double the rushing TDs to passing TDs. And on the flip side you have Jonas Gray with a 4 TD game in his belt. Much comes down to opportunity, circumstance, and play calling.

The best way, IMO, to show this, is how many people are saying it is Payton's fault, not Kamara's, that Kamara got 6 TDs, not 7. That TD that Taysom Hill got isn't seen as a testament to how good Hill is. Kamara getting 6 TDs, not 7, does not make it a lesser game or him a lesser player. It is seen as 100% a situation of play calling and opportunity. If they had chose to get Kamara TD #7, they could have. It just wasn't necessary. But the same goes for the TDs he did get. If they had given the ball to Murray, instead, on one of the TDs, Kamara didn't play worse or isn't a lesser player, he just got one less shot. And on the flip side, a big part of why he got 6, is because he got 6+ shots. That just doesn't normally happen.

I framed my post the way I did because I knew people would come in and try to use this as proof that Kamara is the best back in the league, when in reality, were the same opportunities given to a number of other backs, they could have replicated the feat. Could any back have done it? No, Kamara is obviously very good. But 5 of the 6 were within the 10. Henry, CMC, etc., could have capitalized on that as well.

And I know this better than most, because I have, on at least two occasions, seen a Chiefs back have the chance to get this record, and get benched. Jamaal Charles, against the Raiders in 2013, had 5 TDs through about 40 minutes, when he got benched. His backup rushed for a TD, and a backup TE caught a 6 yard TD pass after his benching. And then in 2004, the Chiefs rushed for 8 TDs against the Falcons. All were short yardage TDs. But the Falcons didn't put up anything resembling an effort, so all carries in the last 20 minutes or so were given to the FB, Tony Richardson, and the backup, Derrick Blaylock. Blaylock got 4 rushing TDs under 8 yards, with 3 coming under 3 yards. Either Holmes or Blaylock could've realistically set the record that day, if they were given full access to the goalline touches.

The point is not to pimp some Chiefs players here, but to say if in 19 years of being a fan of one team, there's been two times a Chief could have set the record if the coach had handled things differently or the other team had scored more points, I'm sure there are many other cases around the league. I actually remember one on the other side, where Portis got his 6th potential TD vultured by Rueben Droughns, against us. That was a less fun day.

And really, Forge said more succinctly below what I'm really trying to get at.

It isn't something Kamara did because he's so much better at scoring TDs than anyone else. He's no different a player now than he was before. It's neat, but it's really a fortune of circumstance, that he took advantage of.

Couldnt have said this any better. Kamara had a fantastic night, but its not really because of the 6 tds. I would have found it more impressive if he ran for 225+ with "only" 2 tds. Its just bizarre thinking to say this game was the proof hes the best, or as @tyler735 loves to say "in the conversation".

[tyler735]

Yep Kamara is definitely in the conversation for best RB in the NFL, really no doubt about it at this point.

As it stands now, Kamara has:

1688 yards from scrimmage

21 touchdowns

5.0 yards per carry

9.1 yards per catch

Great year by Kamara, hopefully he gets a chance to play next week, so he can really put an exclamation point on an already great season.

Edited December 27, 2020 by tyler735

[GSUeagles14]

26 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Yep Kamara is definitely in the conversation for best RB in the NFL, really no doubt about it at this point.

As it stands now, Kamara has:

1688 yards from scrimmage

21 touchdowns

5.0 yards per carry

9.1 yards per catch

Great year by Kamara, hopefully he gets a chance to play next week, so he can really put an exclamation point on an already great season.

*in the conversation for being 4th best. 

 

Fixed it for ya bud. A previously covered TDs arent really skill based, I dont even think you are arguing that they are. Or am i wrong. Henry will very likely have more rushing yards alone than Kamara has scrimmage yards and he will do it (again,  (anvery likely) with more efficiency. No one is saying it hasnt been a great year, it just doesnt touch Henrys or Cooks this year or CMCs last year (and possibly not even his 2018 year).

[tyler735]

3 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

*in the conversation for being 4th best. 

 

Fixed it for ya bud. A previously covered TDs arent really skill based, I dont even think you are arguing that they are. Or am i wrong. Henry will very likely have more rushing yards alone than Kamara has scrimmage yards and he will do it (again,  (anvery likely) with more efficiency. No one is saying it hasnt been a great year, it just doesnt touch Henrys or Cooks this year or CMCs last year (and possibly not even his 2018 year).

Nope in the conversation for best. You literally did nothing to disprove that.

[GSUeagles14]

6 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Nope in the conversation for best. You literally did nothing to disprove that.

I know man, i know. theres simply no argument for kamara over cmc at bare minimum, Henry is so far outproducing kamara on the ground that despite being one dimensional he will stikll have more total yards and cook is kind of in between the two in how they get it done. But cook is going to have the same ypc as kamara withover 100 more carries. Thats pretty much a wrap on that. All three guys are simply outproducing kamara (or in CMCs case, last years production).

Edited December 27, 2020 by GSUeagles14

[tyler735]

3 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

I know man, i know. theres simply no argument for kamara over cmc at bare minimum, Henry is so far outproducing kamara on the ground that despite being one dimensional he will stikll have more total yards and cook is kind of in between the two in how they get it done. But cook is going to have the same ypc as kamara withover 100 more carries. Thats pretty much a wrap on that. All three guys are simply outproducing kamara (or in CMCs case, last years production).

Lol you're free to believe that. If you wanna ignore Kamara's receiving impact and touchdowns that's great 👍.  Many won't agree though such as myself. 

[GSUeagles14]

3 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Lol you're free to believe that. If you wanna ignore Kamara's receiving impact and touchdowns that's great 👍.  Many won't agree though such as myself. 

whose ignoring his reviving impact? But CMCs a better dual threat. And even with that pass catching threat, Henry is so much better as a runner that he will still have more total yards. Oh, and i dont think youre gonna find too many people that will use TDs as a differentiator. but you do you.