Is Alvin Kamara the best Running Back in the NFL? (Part 2)

[Raves]

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

I've covered earlier - if you're capable of doing what Henry does in the running game, I couldn't care less if you contribute in the passing game.

Even if you considered TYFS, Henry is still outproducing Kamara - by close to 500 yards, too. 

I'm really trying to figure where you're coming to these conclusions on the Titans...

- The OL lost their RT to free agency, that replacement was suspended due to covid-19 stupidity and their starting LT was lost for the year with a torn ACL in week 6. Saffold, Jones and David are good, but I don't think anyone would call them best in their position group. This OL was in tatters for the most part.

- This team has perhaps the softest defense of all remaining teams. Nothing tough about it, they generate no pass rush and they're required to cover for 4-5 seconds due to it. They're 19th in run defense, 28th against the pass. I mean, EVERYONE tries to play tough defense. Doing it is another discussion entirely, one that Tennessee is not in.

So, not sure where you're getting your conclusions from, but it's not the case with this Titans team - which really doesn't matter, Henry is going to get his.

This is fair. I think differently... But to crown a guy who can't run as well as Henry as the best RB in football is ignoring a LOT of context on what RBs do. This ultimately is a results based business. Kamara gets results. Henry gets better results.

That's all I'm saying.

Isn't the most important result TDs and Kamara outproduces Henry there.  But like I said it's about how I want them used and because of that Kamara has more/better opportunities to score than just having to run against a stacked box all the time.  It also allows the offense to give defenses more difficult match-ups in trying to match personnel to what the offense is going to run since Kamara can line up and perform just as well as a slot receiver.

Although I'm not a member of any of the ranking sites, pretty sure if you were to look up the Titans OL strictly for their run block ranking, they're going to be ranked pretty high as although they aren't a top OL overall, they are good in one area at least whether it's their original starters or not.

[ET80]

On 11/1/2020 at 9:40 AM, ET80 said:

And I'd say the gap between Henry as a runner and Kamara as a runner is about as big as Kamara and Henry as a receiver. I'll stand by that, Henry is running the ball like nobody else since Dickerson or Prime Peterson. 

Pulling this up from November. I stand by this now, probably moreso than I did when I first said it.

Alvin Kamara is a better receiver. No questions, he's considerably better.

Derrick Henry is a better runner. No questions, he's considerably better.

[Raves]

10 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Pulling this up from November. I stand by this now, probably moreso than I did when I first said it.

Alvin Kamara is a better receiver. No questions, he's considerably better.

Derrick Henry is a better runner. No questions, he's considerably better.

Agreed.  Whichever you prefer is just how you want your offense to run.

[ET80]

1 minute ago, Raves said:

Isn't the most important result TDs and Kamara outproduces Henry there

How much of that is propped up because of a single performance? 

Remember, Henry led the league in TDs last season, and was leading the pack up until that 6 TD performance - that one game is literally the difference between the two. It doesn't mean Kamara is better, it means Kamara had one game that skews the value in his favor.

5 minutes ago, Raves said:

But like I said it's about how I want them used and because of that Kamara has more/better opportunities to score than just having to run against a stacked box all the time.  It also allows the offense to give defenses more difficult match-ups in trying to match personnel to what the offense is going to run since Kamara can line up and perform just as well as a slot receiver.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but when you have a guy who can chrun like Henry against eight man boxes... does it matter? 

You look to dictate what a defense does, Henry dictates what a defense does... in a different way. 

6 minutes ago, Raves said:

Although I'm not a member of any of the ranking sites, pretty sure if you were to look up the Titans OL strictly for their run block ranking, they're going to be ranked pretty high as although they aren't a top OL overall, they are good in one area at least whether it's their original starters or not.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-all-32-units-entering-the-2020-nfl-season

15th, per PFF coming into the season at full strength - not as good as that OL blocking for Kamara (#2 overall).

So... literally middle of the road.

[Raves]

2 minutes ago, ET80 said:

How much of that is propped up because of a single performance? 

Remember, Henry led the league in TDs last season, and was leading the pack up until that 6 TD performance - that one game is literally the difference between the two. It doesn't mean Kamara is better, it means Kamara had one game that skews the value in his favor.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but when you have a guy who can chrun like Henry against eight man boxes... does it matter? 

You look to dictate what a defense does, Henry dictates what a defense does... in a different way. 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-all-32-units-entering-the-2020-nfl-season

15th, per PFF coming into the season at full strength - not as good as that OL blocking for Kamara (#2 overall).

So... literally middle of the road.

Heading into the season the Cavs were ranked 28th-30th in the NBA, right now they are 4-2 and most places have them ranked around the top 10.  Also with how a lot of those teams have played this year, would you actually keep those same rankings for those OLs?  Whether it's just the OL or the blocking scheme, they have a very good run blocking OL otherwise there is no way that Henry would be able to perform at the level he does regardless of his ability.

[Nzd07]

It's Dalvin Cook

 

Better runner than Kamara

Better receiver than Henry

[ET80]

34 minutes ago, Raves said:

Heading into the season the Cavs were ranked 28th-30th in the NBA, right now they are 4-2 and most places have them ranked around the top 10.  Also with how a lot of those teams have played this year, would you actually keep those same rankings for those OLs?

Middle of the of pack, actually - better than the sum of their parts, sure. But still not a good OL when you have guys like David Quesenberry and Dennis Kelly (the #4 and #5 T on the DC) starting.

34 minutes ago, Raves said:

Whether it's just the OL or the blocking scheme, they have a very good run blocking OL otherwise there is no way that Henry would be able to perform at the level he does regardless of his ability.

Yes they can, because Derrick Henry is THAT GOOD. Do you know who the best RB is per PFF score? It's Henry - and that score doesn't look at stats, it looks at on field performance on a snap by snap basis, so quality of OL is negated for the most part.

He's playing some incredibly dominant football, so much that you can't simply say "oh it's his OL" to dismiss it.

[Raves]

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Middle of the of pack, actually - better than the sum of their parts, sure. But still not a good OL when you have guys like David Quesenberry and Dennis Kelly (the #4 and #5 T on the DC) starting.

Yes they can, because Derrick Henry is THAT GOOD. Do you know who the best RB is per PFF score? It's Henry - and that score doesn't look at stats, it looks at on field performance on a snap by snap basis, so quality of OL is negated for the most part.

He's playing some incredibly dominant football, so much that you can't simply say "oh it's his OL" to dismiss it.

He is playing some dominant football, which is why I would put him 3rd on my preferred RB list behind Kamara and a healthy CMC.  But part of why he is so dominant and able to hit 2000 yards is that he has a really damn good OL.  I will also concede part of why Kamara is so damn good and able to produce and score in so many different ways is because of the offensive scheme that Payton has put together.  They both benefit in their own way from the system/parts around them, but trying to boost up one player because of that system/scheme while dismissing another players accomplishments because of similar reasons is bad.  Like I said earlier in this thread, Henry is great and even if he broke the rushing record it wouldn't change how great he is because doing so is just as much a matter of circumstances as when Kamara scored 6 TDs in a game.  For players that are great these accomplishments only further cement how great they are, not boosts them up further.

I'm done with this though since honestly the only difference in how I rank Kamara and Henry is my preference in how I want someone to be used.  I'd actually would rank Henry over CMC but prefer CMC, I just have Kamara over both.

[tyler735]

I'll just add in regards to Run Blocking according to Pro Football Reference both Kamara and Henry averaged 2.8 yards before contact this year. Henry averaged 2.6 yards after contact. Kamara averaged 2.2 yards after contact. Would suggest their blocking was fairly equal with Henry doing more with what he was given (has a .4 advantage in yards after contact) when running the ball which isn't too surprising.

[dtait93]

If Kamara runs for 120 yards it is considered a great game.

If Henry runs for 120 yards he is considered contained.

Kamara also has not proven the ability to score from anywhere on the field at any given moment like Henry can.

Kamara is clearly the better receiving back, but I’m glad I have the guy who possesses the ability to literally break you regardless if you stack 8-9 in the box. And he flashes that ability frequently.

Edited January 5, 2021 by dtait93

[tyler735]

8 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

If Kamara runs for 120 yards it is considered a great game.

If Henry runs for 120 yards he is considered contained.

Kamara also has not proven the ability to score from anywhere on the field at any given moment like Henry can.

Kamara is clearly the better receiving back, but I’m glad I have the guy who possesses the ability to literally break you regardless if you stack 8-9 in the box. And he flashes that ability frequently.

I don't have an issue if you think Henry is better, but this is strange to me. I mean here is 3 long touchdowns. Including him doing it in 3 different ways of scoring just to emphasize his versatility

 

[dtait93]

8 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

I don't have an issue if you think Henry is better, but this is strange to me. I mean here is 3 long touchdowns. Including him doing it in 3 different ways of scoring just to emphasize his versatility

 

Special Teams is pretty null and void since we’re talking what they do from the RB position.

That 74 yard run by Kamara is still his career high from his rookie season. Henry has a 74+ yard run in each of the past 4 seasons. Kamara just doesn’t possess the ability score anywhere on the field like Henry can, I don’t really think that’s much of a debate.

[dtait93]

50+ yard TD’s:

Henry - 11

Kamara - 2

[tyler735]

19 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Special Teams is pretty null and void since we’re talking what they do from the RB position.

Just like to really highlight how versatile Kamara is as he is a true "do it all" player

19 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

That 74 yard run by Kamara is still his career high from his rookie season. Henry has a 74+ yard run in each of the past 4 seasons. Kamara just doesn’t possess the ability score anywhere on the field like Henry can, I don’t really think that’s much of a debate.

Seems strange to me. Like on a play like this Kamara is scoring from 40 yards, 60 yards or wherever. It just so happens he was 40 yards out on this play. Nobody is catching him regardless. 

 

[dtait93]

4 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Just like to really highlight how versatile Kamara is as he is a true "do it all" player

If Kamara is the better kick returner, then Henry is the better QB. And we all know QB is the most valuable position on the field.

 

9 minutes ago, tyler735 said:

Seems strange to me. Like on a play like this Kamara is scoring from 40 yards, 60 yards or wherever. It just so happens he was 40 yards out on this play. Nobody is catching him regardless. 

But that’s the point, he doesn’t ever score from 60 yards or wherever. His TD’s nearly always come on the opponents side of the field. Henry’s a legitimate threat to score anywhere.