Lion's Need GM and HC?

[diehardlionfan]

2 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Agreed, but some stop there, others treat it and run it like a business.  Some treat it and run it like a hobby.  And the Fords have always seem to use this as a hobby. 

I think initially the logic was membership in an exclusive club along with the marketing opportunities for Ford. 

[Nnivolcm]

21 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

This whole "wealthy people should make poor business and financial decisions to make me happy" rationale is crazy to me. (Ignoring the fact that they do quite a bit for the community, something that a perspective buyer may not do.)

Replacing things doesn't necessarily fix things. The owners aren't the problem.

You really went a different direction than I expected with my tongue and cheek answer. The obvious answer to your original question is money. The Fords would gain a large amount of money for selling the franchise. 

The Lions won 3 championships in the 11 years prior to the Fords buying the team, with another championship game appearance. Since the Fords bought the team nearly 60 years ago they've won one playoff game and been a consistent laughing stock in the NFL. The Fords are the one common denominator with the futility of the Lions over the past sixty years. 

As @Sllim Pickens pointed out, the Fords haven't seemed interested in success. It's not shocking (to me anyways) the team hasn't found any since they have been in charge.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, Nnivolcm said:

You really went a different direction than I expected with my tongue and cheek answer. The obvious answer to your original question is money. The Fords would gain a large amount of money for selling the franchise. 

The Lions won 3 championships in the 11 years prior to the Fords buying the team, with another championship game appearance. Since the Fords bought the team nearly 60 years ago they've won one playoff game and been a consistent laughing stock in the NFL. The Fords are the one common denominator with the futility of the Lions over the past sixty years. 

As @Sllim Pickens pointed out, the Fords haven't seemed interested in success. It's not shocking (to me anyways) the team hasn't found any since they have been in charge.

... but they make large amounts of money by keeping the franchise. I don't think they need the payday when they can just sit back and let the organization continue to make them money each year.

The Fords are - obviously - interested in money. It's a business. They hire individuals whose job it is to achieve success. Those individuals have failed at their jobs. The Fords are still making money. Why you think they'd consider selling when they continue to make money by keeping the franchise, regardless of how successful the team is, baffles me.

[Nnivolcm]

20 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

This could be completely on the money but I have to hope that under SFH you're wrong and the team takes a new direction. When you're growing up and cheering on a team that has struggled for years, you wish you could do something about it. Sheila has been watching this team since she was at least 12 years old when the Fords bought the team.

She now has sole control over the team that she grew up watching. We can only speculate on how much influence she has had over the years. I'm just hoping that she seizes the opportunity that rarely few people will ever have and take over the ownership of their favourite team and runs with it. She doesn't need to be a draft expert of a cap expert.. she needs to know who to trust and make the right decisions on hiring the people for those roles. 

I read SFH was a big reason Quintricia was publicly put on the hot seat and kept for 2020. Those two decisions are two of the dumbest things I've seen any sports ownership do. I'm not too optimistic SFH is the one to right this ship. 

[Nnivolcm]

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

... but they make large amounts of money by keeping the franchise. I don't think they need the payday when they can just sit back and let the organization continue to make them money each year.

The Fords are - obviously - interested in money. It's a business. They hire individuals whose job it is to achieve success. Those individuals have failed at their jobs. The Fords are still making money. Why you think they'd consider selling when they continue to make money by keeping the franchise, regardless of how successful the team is, baffles me.

What is the bolded based on? The leadership that remains in charge for significant lengths of time with overwhelmingly poor results? The Fords haven't shown any actions which make me believe success (defined by winning games) is important to them. 

I didn't say I think the Fords are considering selling. I said new ownership is something the Lions need to become successful.

[LionArkie]

8 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

What is the bolded based on? The leadership that remains in charge for significant lengths of time with overwhelmingly poor results? The Fords haven't shown any actions which make me believe success (defined by winning games) is important to them. 

I didn't say I think the Fords are considering selling. I said new ownership is something the Lions need to become successful.

I know this isn't intended for me, but you kind of lost me. TL said right after what you bolded the individuals hired failed. If they aren't hiring people to be successful, are they hiring them to fail? If that's the argument, I don't buy it.

I think the bolded statement is based on all businesses hire for success. Although they don't need the money, I'm sure they wouldn't refuse it either.  Winning will bring them much more money than losing will. The Fords just sit and wait for success longer than most.

Edited November 12, 2020 by LionArkie

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

17 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

What is the bolded based on? The leadership that remains in charge for significant lengths of time with overwhelmingly poor results? The Fords haven't shown any actions which make me believe success (defined by winning games) is important to them. 

I didn't say I think the Fords are considering selling. I said new ownership is something the Lions need to become successful.

Right. And... so? They're an unsuccessful NFL franchise that is still making money. Tons of money.

I disagree with the last sentence. If Quinn was better at drafting, and if Patricia was better at coaching, this team would be successful. Show me a GM/coach combination that were both great, and that only failed because of an owner sitting in their luxury press box, and you might have a point. That hasn't happened. That doesn't happen. Good GMs, good coaches and good players determine success. If we fire Quinn and Patricia and hire a good GM and coach, we'll move towards being a successful team.

[Sllim Pickens]

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Right. And... so? They're an unsuccessful NFL franchise that is still making money. Tons of money.

I disagree with the last sentence. If Quinn was better at drafting, and if Patricia was better at coaching, this team would be successful. Show me a GM/coach combination that were both great, and that only failed because of an owner sitting in their luxury press box, and you might have a point. That hasn't happened. That doesn't happen. Good GMs, good coaches and good players determine success. If we fire Quinn and Patricia and hire a good GM and coach, we'll move towards being a successful team.

You are looking for something that doesnt seem to exist though, which is why you won't find it.  But if you look at the teams who win, they likely have an owner who is involved or at least present and has set a tone.  Yes drafting and coaching is a big deal.  But so is having an owner who is passionate and treats it as more than a cash cow.  Instead of looking for the coach and GM that failed because of their owner, find a team that has won without an active, passionate owner. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

4 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

You are looking for something that doesnt seem to exist though, which is why you won't find it.  But if you look at the teams who win, they likely have an owner who is involved or at least present and has set a tone.  Yes drafting and coaching is a big deal.  But so is having an owner who is passionate and treats it as more than a cash cow.  Instead of looking for the coach and GM that failed because of their owner, find a team that has won without an active, passionate owner. 

You really believe that every owner that has won has taken a hands-on approach with the team? Not only do I not think that's the case, I think active owners can often be a detriment. Take Jerry Jones, for example: sure, the Cowboys were successful years ago, but have accomplished nearly nothing over the last many years. The guy is constantly pushing to "win now", leading to bad trades and organizational turmoil. I'd much rather have an owner that hires a competent GM and stays out of the picture than an owner that refuses to keep his mouth shut.

If the Lions won a Super Bowl, or became a dynasty, others would look to the Fords' work in the community and hail them as "passionate owners". It all comes down to winning. Quinn and Patricia have failed at that.

[Sllim Pickens]

7 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

You really believe that every owner that has won has taken a hands-on approach with the team? Not only do I not think that's the case, I think active owners can often be a detriment. Take Jerry Jones, for example: sure, the Cowboys were successful years ago, but have accomplished nearly nothing over the last many years. The guy is constantly pushing to "win now", leading to bad trades and organizational turmoil. I'd much rather have an owner that hires a competent GM and stays out of the picture than an owner that refuses to keep his mouth shut.

If the Lions won a Super Bowl, or became a dynasty, others would look to the Fords' work in the community and hail them as "passionate owners". It all comes down to winning. Quinn and Patricia have failed at that.

Im not saying be Jerry Jones. Obviously his ego has got him too involved.  Same thing in Cleveland.  But be Mike Illitch, be Mark Cuban, be Clark Hunt, etc.  Owners who allow losing, always lose.  There is a reason the Clippers went from worst sports franchise ever to annual playoff team and contender.  There is a reason the Patriots went from laughing stock to dynasty.  Its not just the coach and GM, its the whole organization working together.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

5 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Im not saying be Jerry Jones. Obviously his ego has got him too involved.  Same thing in Cleveland.  But be Mike Illitch, be Mark Cuban, be Clark Hunt, etc.  Owners who allow losing, always lose.  There is a reason the Clippers went from worst sports franchise ever to annual playoff team and contender.  There is a reason the Patriots went from laughing stock to dynasty.  Its not just the coach and GM, its the whole organization working together.  

Ha. Clark Hunt. He owns the NFL team that, prior to 2020, hadn't won a Super Bowl in 50 years. He only won a Super Bowl when he hired a great coach, Andy Reid, who happened to draft an elite QB prospect. Coaches. Players. Clearly not Hunt. (And, if it was the Hunt family, where were the Super Bowl wins from 1971-2019?)

Mark Cuban. The Mavericks have won one NBA championship - 2011 - since he bought the team in 2000. Two conference titles, in 2006 and 2011. That's it. One championship and two conference titles in 20 years.

Why did the Patriots go from "laughing stock to dynasty"? What percentage of that success belongs to Bill Belichick, who is possibly the greatest head coach of all time? What percentage to Tom Brady, the quarterback Belichick drafted, who is one of the greatest QBs of all time? And what percentage of that success belongs to Kraft? Other than hire Belichick, what has Kraft really done?

Respectfully: stop with this. It's silly. If we had a great coach and a great roster, we'd be a great team. If we fire Quinn and Patricia, and bring in a great GM, we'll be closer to being successful. If that GM hires a great coach and drafts great players, we'll win games. If that great coach develops those great players into elite players, we'll win a Super Bowl. This argument that some rich person sitting in the press box - that isn't making his team's decisions - is instrumental in that team's success is wild. His job is to bring in a great GM and let him do the work. The great owners do just that.

[Sllim Pickens]

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Ha. Clark Hunt. He owns the NFL team that, prior to 2020, hadn't won a Super Bowl in 50 years. He only won a Super Bowl when he hired a great coach, Andy Reid, who happened to draft an elite QB prospect. Coaches. Players. Clearly not Hunt. (And, if it was the Hunt family, where were the Super Bowl wins from 1971-2019?)

Mark Cuban. The Mavericks have won one NBA championship - 2011 - since he bought the team in 2000. Two conference titles, in 2006 and 2011. That's it. One championship and two conference titles in 20 years.

Why did the Patriots go from "laughing stock to dynasty"? What percentage of that success belongs to Bill Belichick, who is possibly the greatest head coach of all time? What percentage to Tom Brady, the quarterback Belichick drafted, who is one of the greatest QBs of all time? And what percentage of that success belongs to Kraft? Other than hire Belichick, what has Kraft really done?

Respectfully: stop with this. It's silly. If we had a great coach and a great roster, we'd be a great team. If we fire Quinn and Patricia, and bring in a great GM, we'll be closer to being successful. If that GM hires a great coach and drafts great players, we'll win games. If that great coach develops those great players into elite players, we'll win a Super Bowl. This argument that some rich person sitting in the press box - that isn't making his team's decisions - is instrumental in that team's success is wild. His job is to bring in a great GM and let him do the work. The great owners do just that.

Hunt has been in the playoffs 7 of the 15 years he has been the owner since his dad died including two wins in that time prior to winning it all last year.  Yes they got over the hump but were still relevant before that.  We have had 3 playoff appearances since 1999 and one win in the SB era.  Its not all about just winning, its about having a culture that doesn't accept losing. 

Mark Cuban took a team with no history of winning and made them consistent playoff contenders and won an NBA championship in the era of super teams.  And he had a couple of down years but the Mavs consistently are in the playoff picture.   

The Patriots have meetings every week with the owner, president, GM and coach.  They work together, which is what makes the "Patriot Way" possible.  There is a reason it doesn't work in other teams when there is not a top down approach of working in unison and supporting those positions.  

Respectfully, the only thing silly is you acknowledging that things don't impact other things.  Belichik failed in Cleveland, survived in NE.  If we fire Quin and Patricia and bring in the best coach and GM in the game, maybe it will work, but it will work better if they have a leader that keeps everything running smooth and everyone on the same page.  I'm not sure how to put it in terms you would recognize but it happens in the military, law enforcement, business, etc.  Everyone needs to work together to be successful, and although some succeed without it, they are not reaching their potential.  That doesn't mean Patricia and Quin are deserving of more time or that they also have not failed at their jobs, but the fact that year after year, GM after GM, coach after coach, president after president seems to have the same failures, you might need to look a step up from them. 

[LionArkie]

13 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

The Patriots have meetings every week with the owner, president, GM and coach.  They work together, which is what makes the "Patriot Way" possible.  There is a reason it doesn't work in other teams when there is not a top down approach of working in unison and supporting those positions. 

I was not aware of this and makes an interesting argument to your point. Well stated.

[Lions017]

1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Hunt has been in the playoffs 7 of the 15 years he has been the owner since his dad died including two wins in that time prior to winning it all last year.  Yes they got over the hump but were still relevant before that.  We have had 3 playoff appearances since 1999 and one win in the SB era.  Its not all about just winning, its about having a culture that doesn't accept losing. 

Mark Cuban took a team with no history of winning and made them consistent playoff contenders and won an NBA championship in the era of super teams.  And he had a couple of down years but the Mavs consistently are in the playoff picture.   

The Patriots have meetings every week with the owner, president, GM and coach.  They work together, which is what makes the "Patriot Way" possible.  There is a reason it doesn't work in other teams when there is not a top down approach of working in unison and supporting those positions.  

Respectfully, the only thing silly is you acknowledging that things don't impact other things.  Belichik failed in Cleveland, survived in NE.  If we fire Quin and Patricia and bring in the best coach and GM in the game, maybe it will work, but it will work better if they have a leader that keeps everything running smooth and everyone on the same page.  I'm not sure how to put it in terms you would recognize but it happens in the military, law enforcement, business, etc.  Everyone needs to work together to be successful, and although some succeed without it, they are not reaching their potential.  That doesn't mean Patricia and Quin are deserving of more time or that they also have not failed at their jobs, but the fact that year after year, GM after GM, coach after coach, president after president seems to have the same failures, you might need to look a step up from them. 

I think that the Patriots are also just a lot more talented. Belichik and the New England staff are just a lot more talented than Quinn and Patricia. 

[Sllim Pickens]

44 minutes ago, Lions017 said:

I think that the Patriots are also just a lot more talented. Belichik and the New England staff are just a lot more talented than Quinn and Patricia. 

Yes, but its the process of getting more talented.  They weren't always more talented but seemed to always win the East and advance in the playoffs.  Yes there are talent disparities on current rosters, but look how those teams have functioned over various GMs, various coaches, etc.  They plug and play on the field and at the coordinator positions.  Thats possible due to strong leadership at the top.