Lion's Need GM and HC?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

We are under new ownership with Sheila Ford Hamp. While she has been working with her mother, it is her show to run now. We'll see if it is more of the same, similar with a different flavour or something new altogether. 

It's a good point. Is the argument that anyone with the name "Ford" isn't a good owner by default?

What's the guarantee that a new owner would hire the "right GM"?

[Karnage84]

3 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

It's a good point. Is the argument that anyone with the name "Ford" isn't a good owner by default?

What's the guarantee that a new owner would hire the "right GM"?

The fact is things were different under Martha Ford compared to WCF. She did have a shorter leash. WCF would have kept Caldwell around and 9-7 with the occasional playoff appearance would have been a win. 

WCF: 1997 - 2014 (17 years)

Win % = 0.3315

Playoff Appearances (Playoff Wins): 3 (0)

Martha 2014 - Present (6 years)

Win % = 0.417

Playoff Appearances (Playoff Wins): 2 (0)

While the bulk of that success was under Caldwell as HC, it was also with Martha as the principal owner. 

 

[Nnivolcm]

Your rose tinted glasses are blinding you more than normal if you can't see SFH's fingerprints all over the current state of the Lions.

[diehardlionfan]

18 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

The fact is things were different under Martha Ford compared to WCF. She did have a shorter leash. WCF would have kept Caldwell around and 9-7 with the occasional playoff appearance would have been a win. 

WCF: 1997 - 2014 (17 years)

Win % = 0.3315

Playoff Appearances (Playoff Wins): 3 (0)

Martha 2014 - Present (6 years)

Win % = 0.417

Playoff Appearances (Playoff Wins): 2 (0)

While the bulk of that success was under Caldwell as HC, it was also with Martha as the principal owner. 

 

It’s interesting how your assumptions always suit your opinion.

You assume Caldwell would never have improved on the 9-7 seasons, you assume WCF would’ve kept Caldwell, while assuming things will be different under the guidance of SH even though she’s been involved at the highest levels of the team as well as the league for a number of years as stated in numerous press releases.

It should be noted that WCF was owner when Caldwell was hired and regardless of assumptions he was the winningest Lions coach in my lifetime.

Under MFF ownership, Caldwell was fired and the current mess was created under her and allowed to continue under her daughter.

The facts are Caldwell won more games, had a more consistent product on field and the progress he made was eliminated when Quinn fired him. What’s followed has been a total disaster.

In the statistics you provide you compare almost two decades versus 6 years and Martha Ford, in your example is given credit for a decision made under WCF ownership. Her solitary major involvement was owner when Caldwell was fired and Patricia hired. So under her guidance the team has been a disaster. MFF and Bob Quinn have only had success when Caldwell was coach.

The Lions, as an organization have been completely incompetent. I get you feel the need to be positive and that’s fine but using assumptions, cherry picked statistics without any analysis certainly doesn’t make that case.

Historically the Caldwell firing was a Lions move. Any time the franchise has a winning coach they fire him. Schmidt, Fintes, Caldwell were all canned and he team collapsed each time. Coaching continuity is really important but the Lions just can’t be satisfied when they are winning. They fire winners and keep losers. 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by diehardlionfan

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

It’s interesting how your assumptions always suit your opinion.

You assume Caldwell would never have improved on the 9-7 seasons, you assume WCF would’ve kept Caldwell, while assuming things will be different under the guidance of SH even though she’s been involved at the highest levels of the team as well as the league for a number of years as stated in numerous press releases.

It should be noted that WCF was owner when Caldwell was hired and regardless of assumptions he was the winningest Lions coach in my lifetime.

See, I was never a fan of how much credit Caldwell got for the 2014 season, his first with the Lions. Schwartz inherited an 0-16 roster and built a competitive team. Caldwell took that team, added very few pieces of significance in his first year (Tate being one), was involved in the drafting of Ebron and went 11-5 in his first season. His team declined over the next three years. He did something similar with the Colts, inheriting a 12-4 Tony Dungy roster, winning 14 games in his first year, then declining over the next two. Interestingly, Caldwell's record in Indianapolis, 26-22, puts him right around 9-7 during his Colts tenure, the same record as coach of the Lions.

I just feel like that's exactly what Caldwell is: a 9-7 coach. It's certainly better than what Patricia has accomplished (there's no denying that), but it's not good enough, and shouldn't be something that we're forced to celebrate as fans.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

18 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

Your rose tinted glasses are blinding you more than normal if you can't see SFH's fingerprints all over the current state of the Lions.

Can you please explain how SFH's "fingerprints are all over the current state of the Lions"?

[Nnivolcm]

20 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Can you please explain how SFH's "fingerprints are all over the current state of the Lions"?

I thought it was common knowledge among Lions fans but here is what about 3 minutes on the google shows:

In a meeting with a small group of reporters last fall, former and current owners Martha Firestone Ford and Sheila Ford Hamp, along with team president Rod Wood, laid out the key contingency for future employment, announcing the team must contend for the postseason in 2020.

She has been working with her mother for six years as an understudy, going to games and NFL meetings, and played a role in putting together and — more importantly — keeping this front office and coaching staff together. It was, she said, “definitely a joint decision" with her mother and siblings.

Hamp had a big say in the decision to retain the team's GM and head coach.

Sheila Ford Hamp takes over as Detroit Lions owner, but major changes are not in store

Quote

 

When Bob Quinn sat down for his second interview before becoming Detroit Lions general manager in 2016, Sheila Ford Hamp was there.

And when the organization brought a few reporters together last December to explain its decision to retain Quinn and head coach Matt Patricia for the 2020 season, Ford Hamp was the most authoritative voice in the room.

So now that the second of Martha Firestone Ford’s four children has officially taken over as team owner and chairman, a move that had been in the works for years and had nothing to do with the 94-year-old Firestone Ford’s health, don’t expect much to change. 

 

Quote

Mother and daughter installed their close confidant, Rod Wood, as team president, and less than two months later, they followed Ernie Accorsi’s advice and hired Quinn as GM.

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Nnivolcm
I keep editing because it's just so easy to find more

[Nnivolcm]

31 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

See, I was never a fan of how much credit Caldwell got for the 2014 season, his first with the Lions. Schwartz inherited an 0-16 roster and built a competitive team. Caldwell took that team, added very few pieces of significance in his first year (Tate being one), was involved in the drafting of Ebron and went 11-5 in his first season. His team declined over the next three years. He did something similar with the Colts, inheriting a 12-4 Tony Dungy roster, winning 14 games in his first year, then declining over the next two. Interestingly, Caldwell's record in Indianapolis, 26-22, puts him right around 9-7 during his Colts tenure, the same record as coach of the Lions.

I just feel like that's exactly what Caldwell is: a 9-7 coach. It's certainly better than what Patricia has accomplished (there's no denying that), but it's not good enough, and shouldn't be something that we're forced to celebrate as fans.

That's a whole lot of context you're ignoring.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

52 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

That's a whole lot of context you're ignoring.

There are times where it seems that you don't understand how discussions work.

This is a good time to explain exactly what that context is. If you think there's missing context, you should make that case. I was merely comparing how Caldwell usually seems to inherit teams that are trending in the right direction, has success in his first year, then that team declines.

So, go ahead. Type something with substance.

[Nnivolcm]

22 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

There are times where it seems that you don't understand how discussions work.

This is a good time to explain exactly what that context is. If you think there's missing context, you should make that case. I was merely comparing how Caldwell usually seems to inherit teams that are trending in the right direction, has success in his first year, then that team declines.

So, go ahead. Type something with substance.

I'm very aware of you discussions with you work.

The context has been gone over on this forum ad nauseum. I doubt parroting it one again will do much. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

13 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

I'm very aware of you discussions with you work.

The context has been gone over on this forum ad nauseum. I doubt parroting it one again will do much. 

There he is. I was hopeful, but I wasn't holding my breath.

[diehardlionfan]

On 11/14/2020 at 1:58 PM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

See, I was never a fan of how much credit Caldwell got for the 2014 season, his first with the Lions. Schwartz inherited an 0-16 roster and built a competitive team. Caldwell took that team, added very few pieces of significance in his first year (Tate being one), was involved in the drafting of Ebron and went 11-5 in his first season. His team declined over the next three years. He did something similar with the Colts, inheriting a 12-4 Tony Dungy roster, winning 14 games in his first year, then declining over the next two. Interestingly, Caldwell's record in Indianapolis, 26-22, puts him right around 9-7 during his Colts tenure, the same record as coach of the Lions.

I just feel like that's exactly what Caldwell is: a 9-7 coach. It's certainly better than what Patricia has accomplished (there's no denying that), but it's not good enough, and shouldn't be something that we're forced to celebrate as fans.

Caldwell had input to player decisions but wasn’t the GM so unless I can find something that changes that then final decisions rest with the GM.

I understand your point I just disagree about his ability. I can even understand the rational, I just totally disagree with the organizations approach once they decided to move on. A first time GM shouldn’t be hiring a first time head coach much less one that has never been a head coach at any level. 

The Lions are just incompetent as an organization. They always shoot themselves in the foot. Always searching for better but never having a complete workable plan. They’ve done it since I’ve been a fan. The best way to get run out of Detroit is to be successful. Schmidt, Fontes and Caldwell fired and the team has miserable results. I’ve read many times the Fontes firing was one of the reasons Barry left. 

Every successful coach fired, star players disrespected, frustrated, tired of the losing. But be unsuccessful and they keep you around.well past the time they should’ve been fired.

The team needs to clean house from the President on down. 

In fact they should hire a quality President and ownership should get out if the way.

Even a blind squirrel finds the odd nut.

 

[LionArkie]

I just read an article saying how the president has done a real good job and they should allow him to pick the next gm (or at least suggested it’s a possibility. If I find it again, I’ll link it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.prideofdetroit.com/platform/amp/2020/11/10/21555615/5-things-detroit-lions-need-2021

no idea how Much of a homer site this is, but here it is. Gag me if wood is now making our football decisions.

Edited November 15, 2020 by LionArkie

[Sllim Pickens]

25 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I just read an article saying how the president has done a real good job and they should allow him to pick the next gm (or at least suggested it’s a possibility. If I find it again, I’ll link it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.prideofdetroit.com/platform/amp/2020/11/10/21555615/5-things-detroit-lions-need-2021

no idea how Much of a homer site this is, but here it is. Gag me if wood is now making our football decisions.

I would have to see what he has done to be considered good.  The article acts like he wasn't part of the Quinn hire but he was, and needed the league to make the decision for him because he didnt have enough knowledge to do it.  He has no experience in pro sports and that shows in how he does things.  I know there are enough good business men who have come up in professional sports that could take on that role but if the Fords keep hiring friends and not holding them accountable, we will be right back here in three years. 

[Karnage84]

15 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I would have to see what he has done to be considered good.  The article acts like he wasn't part of the Quinn hire but he was, and needed the league to make the decision for him because he didnt have enough knowledge to do it.  He has no experience in pro sports and that shows in how he does things.  I know there are enough good business men who have come up in professional sports that could take on that role but if the Fords keep hiring friends and not holding them accountable, we will be right back here in three years. 

It could be we worse. We could have a former "Character Coach" running the ship like they now have in Houston.