Is this one of Belichick’s best coaching years?

[The Third Rider]

You only win coach of the year if you actually win games. Bill has his squad playing above their caliber but not good enough to win the award imho.

[m haynes]

13 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Patrick Chung donta Hightower and cannon(whose replacement has outplayed him) is the reason they won’t make the playoffs this year?

That's questionable. Yes the rookies stepped up but I take Hightower and Cannon (healthy) over a rookie. The Pats middle D was destroyed all year. Simon and Bentley are not full time starters. They have a limited packages but played more than they should have to and were exposed.

Simon, didn't you see him flying in the air last night. The Rams target their running game right at him!

ADDED  There was no rookie that would out perform Hightower on the Pats. It not even close.

Edited December 11, 2020 by m haynes

[Saint_James]

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

Have you watched Jimmy G this season?

Answer the question - is Jimmy G six times better than Cam? Yes or no?

Okay you wanna get out of this without eating any crow, I understand.  It's cool.

Yes, Jimmy G at this point in his career IS six times better a quarterback than Cam Newton.   I dare you to make the case otherwise using real metrics and the eye-test.  This isn't 2015 anymore.

Did you watch that game?  I get it, you think Jimmy G is mediocre.  But his record as a starter is what it is because he doesn't LOSE his team games.  How many games this season has Cam Newton been the reason they lost? 

That's why Bellicheck wanted Jimmy G, he's PERFECT for that program.  Just execute the offense and don't be the reason they lose.   It's the Patriot way man.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Saint_James

[ET80]

26 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Well it seems you're quite the fan to be honest.  

Find me one one example where anyone praised him. Closest was me comparing Cam's career accomplishments to Garropolo's career accomplishments.

26 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Yes I get that, you're just wrong.  He's not great, nor is he terrible, but he's good.  

Is. He. Six. Times. Better. Than. Cam?

Simple question you're ducking.

26 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

And the fact that you tell me you don't "like" that his record as a starter is pretty amazing, tells me you're just flat biased.

No, it's a simple understanding that football is a team sport and that no one position is responsible for a W or an L. Do I credit Ray Lewis for the Ravens W/L recoed? So why should I for Trent Dilfer? Do I say "Emmitt Smith went 39-3 for the Cowboys..."? No, nobody does that.

So, why should QBs get that in their favor? That's a generalized statement for the position - could be Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, Darnold, Minshew, Trubisky - doesn't matter. 

26 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

We have no way of knowing what he would be paid on the Patriots, but given how they run things, it certainly would be less. 

He was in a contract year the year they traded him - what was the response from NE if they didn't trade him? You had to pay him SOMETHING, right? Why would he take less than what he'd get on the open market? Because we saw how the open market responded - 2nd round pick along with 5/$137mm.

I've asked you before - play out the scenario for us. What does the world look like if Garropolo wasn't traded - as you're implying should have been the case?

26 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

At the risk of being banned, this is just crazy.   Sir, how can you mix in what the Niner's are paying him to make an argument what his cap hit would be on the Patriots?  

Because the market responded to his value - that's a basic premise of Economics, one Jimmy Garropolo is worth a 2nd round pick and a 5/$137mm contract. These deals aren't made in a vacuum, they're negotiated by professional agents and GMs that have massive amounts of data to base these decisions on. 

I'll put it like this - if Garropolo doesn't get a deal in line with 5/$100mm+ in this scenario, he needs to fire his agent immediately. He's touted as a future starting QB, so he needs to be paid as one. Any agent half worth his salt should work this into discussion.

Also - why would you be banned? We're having discourse here. Keep it above the belt and we'll be OK.

26 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Then go tell that to Bill Bellicheck man!  He was REALLY high on Jimmy G and I'm just guessing that he knows better than you about it.

But he agreed to trade him - it might be in response to Brady's demand, but he did it. Final call came down to Belicheck, and he didn't try to slow play this or work another angle. It's not like Brady forged Belicheck's signatures on trade documents that have to be sent to the league, it's not like Brady called up John Lynch and "hey, it's Belly... Boy do I have a deal for you!"

Brady asked for it... and Belicheck complied. So maybe (just maybe) he felt that 2nd round pick was worth more than this guy.

[ET80]

8 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Yes, Jimmy G at this point in his career IS six times better a quarterback than Cam Newton

So, against the Seahawks (we know how you feel about that defense - I can dig it up for you if you'd like) Jimmy G went 11-16, 84 yards and an INT - not too far off from the 9-16, 119 0/1 that aged my comment so bad.

So, Jimmy G - against the worst defense in history, per your statements - performed on par vs Cam against probably the best defense in football right now.

Did I get that right? Do we need more? That's worth six times more to you?

[Saint_James]

5 minutes ago, ET80 said:

But he agreed to trade him - it might be in response to Brady's demand, but he did it. Final call came down to Belicheck, and he didn't try to slow play this or work another angle. It's not like Brady forged Belicheck's signatures on trade documents that have to be sent to the league, it's not like Brady called up John Lynch and "hey, it's Belly... Boy do I have a deal for you!"

Brady asked for it... and Belicheck complied. So maybe (just maybe) he felt that 2nd round pick was worth more than this guy.

I answered you.  Yes, Jimmy G is six times the quarterback as Cam Newton.  There.   Can we get real?  Cam Netwon this season isn't even a quarterback.  He's a fullback that can sometimes complete a pass. 

Also, no, I don't think this is how this works.  Bellicheck has power, but he's not the owner.  The owner of the team made him trade Jimmy G away.   That's the story, that's what we know.

[ET80]

Just now, Saint_James said:

Yes, Jimmy G is six times the quarterback as Cam Newton

 

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

So, against the Seahawks (we know how you feel about that defense - I can dig it up for you if you'd like) Jimmy G went 11-16, 84 yards and an INT - not too far off from the 9-16, 119 0/1 that aged my comment so bad.

So, Jimmy G - against the worst defense in history, per your statements - performed on par vs Cam against probably the best defense in football right now.

Did I get that right? Do we need more? That's worth six times more to you?

 

[Saint_James]

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

So, against the Seahawks (we know how you feel about that defense - I can dig it up for you if you'd like) Jimmy G went 11-16, 84 yards and an INT - not too far off from the 9-16, 119 0/1 that aged my comment so bad.

So, Jimmy G - against the worst defense in history, per your statements - performed on par vs Cam against probably the best defense in football right now.

Did I get that right? Do we need more? That's worth six times more to you?

 

Childish.   Okay so that's Jimmy G's worst game as a Niner maybe playing without a full team.  A team riddled with injury against a Russel Wilson in MVP form.

Do you want me to go find Cam Newton's worst game as a starter?  I don't think you want me to do that.  I assure you, you don't win that one lol. 

You're desperate and reaching.  Stop deflecting.

[ET80]

5 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Also, no, I don't think this is how this works.  Bellicheck has power, but he's not the owner.  The owner of the team made him trade Jimmy G away.   That's the story, that's what we know.

I'll concede that Kraft took up the position and forced the trade, but you need to concede that contract wasn't going to be cheap.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/report-patriots-owner-kraft-forced-belichick-trade-garoppolo

Garoppolo was scheduled to be an unrestricted free agent at the end of the season. And Garoppolo and his agent, Don Yee, had repeatedly rejected Patriots offers to retain Garoppolo on a four-year contract extension worth “in the $17 million to $18 million range annually,”

So, yes - Kraft made the move. Point, you. But, Garropolo/Yee repeatedly rejected a 4/$72mm extension already, so the deal was not going to be too far from 5/$137mm. Point, me.

[Saint_James]

Just now, ET80 said:

I'll concede that Kraft took up the position and forced the trade, but you need to concede that contract wasn't going to be cheap.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/report-patriots-owner-kraft-forced-belichick-trade-garoppolo

Garoppolo was scheduled to be an unrestricted free agent at the end of the season. And Garoppolo and his agent, Don Yee, had repeatedly rejected Patriots offers to retain Garoppolo on a four-year contract extension worth “in the $17 million to $18 million range annually,”

So, yes - Kraft made the move. Point, you. But, Garropolo/Yee rejected a 4/$72mm extension already, so the deal was not going to be too far from 5/$137mm. Point me.

Are you an accountant in real life?   This obsession with the contract status of the players, as if it invalidates my point, is kind of dumb.  We don't have time machines, neither of us can possibly say either way.  What does it matter anyway?

Yes I get it:  Cam Newton is incredibly cheap.  Duh.  NOBODY wanted him!   How in the WORLD you turn that into a winning argument is truly a stroke of genius.  No really, you have a gift.

You know what, you're right.  I think I'll just trade in my BMW and get that 1984 Yugo!  What a steal!

[ET80]

1 minute ago, Saint_James said:

Childish.  

How so? Stand by your statements.

(And, no need to attack me. If you're not able to continue this discussion without resorting to these ad hominem attacks against me, then I really have no reason to continue this discussion. If you can't handle this discussion, walk away).

3 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Okay so that's Jimmy G's worst game as a Niner maybe playing without a full team.

No, it wasn't actually. Jimmy G has a litany of games like this, actually.

And remind me - when has Cam played with a full team? A team that isn't missing eight people due to Covid-19 opt outs?

5 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Do you want me to go find Cam Newton's worst game as a starter?  I don't think you want me to do that. 

I've got nothing pressing for the next 45 minutes. Enlighten me.

[ET80]

10 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Are you an accountant in real life?  

I consult to banks and credit unions, so...close.

10 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

This obsession with the contract status of the players, as if it invalidates my point, is kind of dumb. 

If there wasn't a hard salary cap in the NFL, then you might have a point. Teams have limited resources to maintain their roster, and a contract to Garropolo possibly prevents you from giving an extension to guys like Stephon Gilmore, Donta Hightower, etc. 

This isn't the Yankees or Dodgers where you can buy yourself into contention.

10 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Yes I get it:  Cam Newton is incredibly cheap.  Duh.  NOBODY wanted him!   How in the WORLD you turn that into a winning argument is truly a stroke of genius.  No really, you have a gift.

It's really not difficult when you think of the salary cap. And my argument isn't that Cam is cheap - it's that Garropolo is expensive. Turn off your bias for Cam and see that's the crux of my argument.

10 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

You know what, you're right.  I think I'll just trade in my BMW and get that 1984 Yugo!  What a steal!

If that BMW note is preventing me from possibly feeding my family or paying my mortgage, then yes - trading down into a more affordable vehicle is absolutely the smart decision. (And a 2019 Infiniti Q50 cost much less than a Beemer, while costing less in upkeep, so no need for the Yugo).

[Saint_James]

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

 

(And, no need to attack me. If you're not able to continue this discussion without resorting to these ad hominem attacks against me, then I really have no reason to continue this discussion. If you can't handle this discussion, walk away).

 

See?  That's what I was afraid of.   I should have not engaged with a moderator.  You get to start fights with others, then when pushed, drop the banhammer threat....

You know what, I don't even know why I'm doing this.  I hate the damned Patriots anyway and I LOVE that this season is going this way.   My wife and I both called it as soon as we heard they signed Cam Newton, no way this works out and it's clearly not working.

So hey you win, really.   Why am I sitting here taking a position that would benefit a team I hate?  I don't know lol.   Seriously I don't care anymore, you win, fine. 

Quote

No, it wasn't actually. Jimmy G has a litany of games like this, actually.

Oh right he's 24-8 as a starter all-time.  Clearly he's had TONS of games where he imploded like Cam Newton.   That made sense to you when you typed that? 

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

See?  That's what I was afraid of.   I should have not engaged with a moderator.  You get to start fights with others, then when pushed, drop the banhammer threat....

Am I fighting with you? Have I attacked you personally?

I'm taking an opposite stance with you, but I'm keeping it to Football - not you. I don't know anything about you, and that's fine. You're a football fan, I'm a football fan - that's all that really matters.

[ET80]

2 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

Oh right he's 24-8 as a starter all-time. 

 

30 minutes ago, ET80 said:

No, it's a simple understanding that football is a team sport and that no one position is responsible for a W or an L. Do I credit Ray Lewis for the Ravens W/L recoed? So why should I for Trent Dilfer? Do I say "Emmitt Smith went 39-3 for the Cowboys..."? No, nobody does that.

So, why should QBs get that in their favor? That's a generalized statement for the position - could be Mahomes, Wilson, Watson, Darnold, Minshew, Trubisky - doesn't matter.