Defense Discussion [2017]

[squire12]

Those are some flattering clips of the tackling display.

[MantyWrestler]

Heck, we played with only 2 DL most of the game yesterday. Then sent Clay and Perry to rush with them almost always. That’s a 4-3 for the most part.

 

the real issue is we have 1 DT who can get after the QB regularly and he gets doubled. Lowry, Francis, Clark... don’t get pressure often enough. Clark is still very you and had a good game yesterday. Don’t see it from m the others enough and by the way, where the heck is Adams? Heard good things about him in pre season and he never sees the field. 

 

We we are week up front in a 3-4 but would we be better with a 4-3? We have only 1 DE  

RDE - Perry - ?

3T - Daniels - Lowry

NT - Clark - Adams

LDE - ?

ROLB - Fackrel - Biegel

MLB - Martinez - Ryan

LOLB - Clay - Jones

[JBURGE]

I don't see how the switch could work. We let Datone and Peppers go who were really two guys who could make the transition

[skibrett15]

40 minutes ago, JBURGE25 said:

I don't see how the switch could work. We let Datone and Peppers go who were really two guys who could make the transition

I don't see the point anyway.  You can play basic coverages and zone from a 3-4 if that's what @HorizontoZenith means.  3-4 vs 4-3 means next to nothing in today's NFL.

If the point is to play Clay in a more stand up LB role, that doesn't have to do with 3-4 or 4-3.  Dom can easily call plays and game plan for Clay to be upright and focused on the run/coverage rather than the run/rush.

To me, the task of the defense is 2 pronged:

1) You have a front 7 (more like front 6, but I'll stick with normal terminology for now) which has the majority of our quality players: Clark, Daniels, Clay, Perry, Martinez.  It has some role guys who have been ok-good in the past but not so good this year: Brooks, Lowry.  It has some proven nobodies: Jake Ryan, Kyler Fackrell, and some unproven nobodies: Dial, Biegel, Montravious Adams.

The scheme of the defense and the objective of the playcaller should be to put our quality players in positions to make plays WITHOUT exposing fundamental flaws vs commonly run plays/schemes.  It's the job of the front 7 to play soundly first, then to make plays when opportunity presents itself.  It's NOT the job of the front 7 to try to make plays outside the scheme that MIGHT work, or might result in big plays.  When it comes to the passing game, the front 7 MUST contribute enough pressure to alleviate the stress on our under-manned secondary.  This is the ONLY way this team will win games.  When the ball goes up to the short areas and flats, the front 7 players must rally to the ball with greater urgency, and look to make plays on the ball.  It's ok for the secondary to "slow up" the ball carrier, and wait for reinforcements to bring that player to the ground.

2) We have a secondary which cannot tackle the ball-carrier or make plays/take angles in space.  While the defense is giving up big plays, it's actually quite rare that there are WIDE OPEN players running through the middle of the defense (there were vs Atlanta, mostly due to PA breakdowns by safeties Brice/HHCD) or players who aren't accounted for by the secondary in coverage.  The players in the secondary are actually very fundamentally sound during coverage, but they CONSISTENTLY fail to play fundamentally sound once the ball is in the air/caught by the opponent.  Perfect example is the Brice/Hawkins double coverage vs Thielen which led to a 40 yard DPI penalty.  Perfect coverage, players don't make play on the ball AND cause a penalty in the process.

Still, plays on the ball are actually less relevant than tackling the ball-carrier.  There is a very good reason that Kevin King was so impressive when he came in vs Atlanta and in the following game.  He tackles like a solid NFL player.  That level of play needs to be the norm rather than the exception -- tackling with the arms and shoulder pads around the hips/waist of the offensive player.  Most teams are full of these players.  Green Bay is not, and never has been.

The remainder of our players are so far out of position that they attempt to reach for shoelaces, occasionally succeeding.  When in zone coverage, King is able to see the receivers and the quarterback, so when the quarterback releases it, he is running to the spot where the receiver will catch the ball.  Often, he meets the receiver there, and when he does, the ball carrier has no chance to advance.  This also causes incompletions when he gets there at the RIGHT time.  Morgan Burnett is the only other player who usually plays in this manner, but he is not the explosive athlete King is so it's not as impressive looking. 

Brice, HHCD (who is ok when he is playing the ball, not when playing the man), Rollins, Randall, Hawkins are all HORRIBLE at this part of defense.  They are soft, weak, scared players who play like they are scared of being or getting injured.  Brice is not scared, he simply has no spatial awareness or ability to change directions.  He runs around the field and his tackles are MOBA skillshots that he has to line up perfectly or completely whiff.

It's the job of the secondary to turn these 8-15 yard gains into 4 yard gains which set up 2nd and 6 and 3rd and 2.  This front 7 can destroy 2nd and 6 and 3rd and 2.

 

[TransientTexan]

1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Literally nobody would agree with you if we went by who wanted him back and how many times people yelled at him in gameday threads.  You don't get this one.  Hyde was not great for us, and he didn't play as well for us as he's playing now in Buffalo.  Even when he alternated between CB and S (yeah, he did that for us). 

A. Very convenient that you can speak for everyone on this board. 

B. Hyde spent very little time at S in GB due to the Randall/Rollins injuries forcing him back into slot. 

C. Whether fans want to bring a guy back has alot to do with cost and existing alternatives on the roster, which is a different question from whether they like a guy in a vacuum. GB already had good safeties plus some promising young players. Many fans acknowledged Hyde's contributions to the team but found his production would be too redundant to what we already have, and thus not worth paying the bigger price to retain him.

D. Fan "consensus" doesn't matter that much. Fan "consensus" gave Jeff Saturday a Pro Bowl while in GB.

1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said:

No.  Wrong.  You do not get this one, either.  It was proven based on targets and yards that he had a top 5 season in Jacksonville in 2015.  Top 5 as in comparable to the very best in the game based on completion percentage, QB rating, and success rate when throwing at him.  

House had great metrics for GB in 2014 also. He graded as a middle-tier CB in 2015. Typing in all-caps does not strengthen your argument, fyi. 

3 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

2009?  This isn't even remotely true.  We gave up 30 points or more 5 times in 09.  We gave up a billion passing yards and 40+ points in the playoffs.  Our pass defense was NOT good in 2009.  They got interceptions.  It wasn't a good pass defense.
2010 - Yes. 
2012 - Uh, no.  McMillian?  Jennings?  Do those names remind you of any safeties?  400 passing yards in week 1.  30+ points 4 times.  Kaepernick not only ran all over us, he averaged 11 yards a pass with no interceptions and 2 touchdowns.  It was a bad defense all around. 
2014 - No.  Well, maybe.  I'll allow this one even though  Ryan had 375 yards and 4 touchdowns against us.  Brees had 311 and 3 touchdowns with 45 total points.  It was average that year. 
2015 - No.  It was good against bad quarterbacks, but veteran quarterbacks picked us apart.  Remember what old fart Manning did to that team? 

anecdotal evidence produces very weak arguments.

Yr-----Fewest Pass Yards allowed---- Most INT-----Completion %-----Fewest Net Yards allowed per pass attempt

2009---------------#5---------------------------------#1------------------#2-----------------------------#7

2010---------------#5---------------------------------#2------------------#4-----------------------------#3

2011---------------#32-------------------------------#1------------------#19---------------------------#30

2012---------------#11-------------------------------#9------------------#4-----------------------------#7

2013---------------#24-------------------------------#25-----------------#20--------------------------#26

2014---------------#10-------------------------------#8--------------------#7----------------------------#8

2015---------------#6---------------------------------#9--------------------#4----------------------------#11

2016---------------#31-------------------------------#8--------------------#25--------------------------#30

 

[MacReady]

Anecdotal evidence produces very weak arguments?  Anecdotal, factual, whatever you want to look at it, our pass defense was not good for the majority of the past eight years (except 2010) when it counted.  If it ranked "good," it obviously didn't hold up.  We had good (top 16 based on performance) pass defense in 2010, 2014 an 2015.  That's it.  The other years they may have "ranked" high or average or good, but was that or was that not due to very bad rushing defenses? 

[TransientTexan]

1 minute ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Anecdotal evidence produces very weak arguments?  Anecdotal, factual, whatever you want to look at it, our pass defense was not good for the majority of the past eight years (except 2010) when it counted.  If it ranked "good," it obviously didn't hold up.  We had good (top 16 based on performance) pass defense in 2010, 2014 an 2015.  That's it.  The other years they may have "ranked" high or average or good, but was that or was that not due to very bad rushing defenses? 

how does that explain the other 3 stats then? rushing D has no effect on those.

[MacReady]

Just now, TransientTexan said:

how does that explain the other 3 stats then? rushing D has no effect on those.

Yeah it does.  It's the same reason the Browns were the #5 defense in the NFL this year coming into this week.  If a team can just run it on you and they're up the whole game, why would they pass?  If they don't pass, our pass defense "ranks" higher. 

In 2009, the Bengals scored 31 points against us.  Palmer had only 185 yards passing.  Why?  Because Cedric Benson ran for 141 yards against us.  That doesn't mean our pass defense played well that game.  They didn't.  Same year, Favre torched us.  Twice.  Zero interceptions.  Seven touchdowns.  He didn't throw 300 yards against us once though, so our pass defense ranking didn't suffer too much.  Buccaneers scored 38 points against us.  Josh Freeman had 200 passing and 3 touchdowns with one interception.  And, if you're going to continue this conversation and not accept that our pass defense wasn't "good" in any of those years, please... And I'm going to have to insist that you address this... PLEASE explain how Ben Roethlisberger threw for 503 yards and 3 touchdowns against a "good" pass defense in 2009.  Or how Kurt Warner threw for 379 yards and 5 touchdowns against a "good" pass defense in 2009.

Our pass defense has NOT been "good" in any of those years except for 2010.  They've been average, below average or bad every single year except 2010, and I don't care what your statistics say. 

So I just dismantled your assertion that our pass defense was good in 2009.  Would you disagree?  Would you seriously disagree?  Are you going to try to suggest that our 2009 pass defense was good? 

[incognito_man]

HZ, you're wrong here...

2012 we had an elite passing defense (ranked 4th in defensive passer rating against).

2014 we had a really good passing defense (ranked 8th in DPR)

2015 we had a really good passing defense (ranked 9th in DPR)

[TransientTexan]

19 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Yeah it does.  It's the same reason the Browns were the #5 defense in the NFL this year coming into this week.  If a team can just run it on you and they're up the whole game, why would they pass?  If they don't pass, our pass defense "ranks" higher. 

In 2009, the Bengals scored 31 points against us.  Palmer had only 185 yards passing.  Why?  Because Cedric Benson ran for 141 yards against us.  That doesn't mean our pass defense played well that game.  They didn't.  Same year, Favre torched us.  Twice.  Zero interceptions.  Seven touchdowns.  He didn't throw 300 yards against us once though, so our pass defense ranking didn't suffer too much.  Buccaneers scored 38 points against us.  Josh Freeman had 200 passing and 3 touchdowns with one interception.  And, if you're going to continue this conversation and not accept that our pass defense wasn't "good" in any of those years, please... And I'm going to have to insist that you address this... PLEASE explain how Ben Roethlisberger threw for 503 yards and 3 touchdowns against a "good" pass defense in 2009.  Or how Kurt Warner threw for 379 yards and 5 touchdowns against a "good" pass defense in 2009.

Our pass defense has NOT been "good" in any of those years except for 2010.  They've been average, below average or bad every single year except 2010, and I don't care what your statistics say. 

So I just dismantled your assertion that our pass defense was good in 2009.  Would you disagree?  Would you seriously disagree?  Are you going to try to suggest that our 2009 pass defense was good? 

You didn’t dismantle ****. You did not answer my question. How are net yards per pass attempt affected by run defense? How is completion % affected by run defense? How are interception totals increased by having a bad run defense?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

[MacReady]

40 minutes ago, TransientTexan said:

You didn’t dismantle ****. You did not answer my question. How are net yards per pass attempt affected by run defense? How is completion % affected by run defense? How are interception totals increased by having a bad run defense?

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Because we had players like Woodson who made plays on balls against bad quarterbacks and we were in the same division as Jay Cutler and bad Stafford.  We weren't good pass defenses in spite of the high turnover numbers we had.  We were the #1 interception pass defense in the NFL in 2011.  Was THAT a good pass defense?  No, just like 2009 wasn't.  Just like the rest weren't, regardless of their statistical rankings.  Unless you think a good pass defense has those 5 games I listed from 2009. 

Was 2009 or was it not a good pass defense?  Simple question.  Because if you can agree that it was a bad pass defense, I'll move on to prove how 2012, 2013, and 2015 weren't good pass defenses, either. 

[incognito_man]

2 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Because we had players like Woodson who made plays on balls against bad quarterbacks and we were in the same division as Jay Cutler and bad Stafford.  We weren't good pass defenses in spite of the high turnover numbers we had.  We were the #1 interception pass defense in the NFL in 2011.  Was THAT a good pass defense?  No, just like 2009 wasn't.  Just like the rest weren't, regardless of their statistical rankings.  Unless you think a good pass defense has those 5 games I listed from 2009. 

Was 2009 or was it not a good pass defense?  Simple question.  Because if you can agree that it was a bad pass defense, I'll move on to prove how 2012, 2013, and 2015 weren't good pass defenses, either. 

2009 was a pretty bad pass defense. The other years were not.

[MacReady]

Just now, incognito_man said:

2009 was a pretty bad pass defense. The other years were not.

2009 - Bad
2010 - Good
2011 - Bad
2016 - Bad

So you and the other one are disputing whether or not 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 were good.  Before I go over them, I'm gonna guess 2014 was good, 2015 was bad, 2013 was bad and 2012 was bad. 

2012 - We played a bunch of crap quarterbacks.  When we didn't play a crap QB, we sucked.  Brees had 446, 3 TD, 0 INT.  Luck had 362, 2 TD and an INT as a rookie.  Eli Manning had a good game against us.  Christian Ponder had 234 yards and 3 touchdowns without a pick against us.  2012 was a bad pass defense.  We didn't play a single notable QB.  Kaepernick, Cutler, Wilson, Brees (446, 3), Luck (good game), Schaub, Bradford, Gabbert, Skelton (Yes, John Skelton had a 300 yard game against us in 2012).  Stafford, Eli, Ponder, Cutler, Locker, Ponder.  How is anybody going to argue we had a good pass defense in 2012 when we finished 11th/9th in yards/interceptions against those quarterbacks? 

2013 - Kaepernick had 412 yards, 3 touchdowns and 0 picks passing.  Griffin had 320 yards, 3 TD, 1 INT).  Dalton, Stafford, Flacco (342, 2 TD, 0 INT), Weeden, Ponder, McCown (272, 2 TD), Foles (228, 3 TD, 0 INT), Eli, Ponder, Stafford, Ryan (pre Julio), Romo (358, 2 td, INT), Cutler.  Those aren't stellar quarterbacks, either.  And what reason did Kaepernick have to throw in the playoff game when he ran for 98 yards again?  2013 was average. 

2009 - Bad
2010 - Good
2011 - Bad
2012 - Bad
2013 - Average
2014 - Good
2015 - Average
2016 - Bad

4 bad, 2 good, 2 average.  This year is trending towards average or bad. 

[incognito_man]

2012: 7th in pass defense DVOA = really good pass defense.

2014: 11th in pass defense DVOA = good pass defense.

2015: 6th in pass defense DVOA = really good pass defense.

That encapsulates not only your attempt at justifying the opponents, but also every other team in the league.

[MacReady]

I don't really care what DVOA suggests, 2012 wasn't a really good pass defense.  I already said 2014 was good.  I said 2015 was average, and it was.  Statistically speaking, they've been good.  When it comes to which secondary you'd pick to go up against Brees/Brady/Ryan/ other good quarterbacks, they weren't good.