Norm Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 45 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: You haven't been on this site long enough then. Obviously, but I'm talking specifically about this year. When I refer to Clinton-Dix, Burnett, King, House, Randall and Jones, I'm talking collectively. Collectively, they suck for us right now. I really don't though. Hyde, Hayward, House all had pro bowl caliber years after leaving Green Bay (don't tell me House's 2015 season wasn't pro bowl caliber because it was). Woodson had all-pro and pro bowl years after leaving us. Every DB that leaves us has success elsewhere. There literally isn't any sample of a DB who played well for us at any point who didn't perform as well or better elsewhere. Injuries held our secondary back last year. Maybe a little this year. But we weren't a great pass defense (bad pass defense) for most of 2014, 2013, 2012 and 2011. 2011 we lost Collins, but we still had Woodson, Burnett, Williams, Shields and House. The only constant through those years has been Capers and non-veterans. Bottom line, our pass coverage scheme hasn't been working as a collective unit for years now, and we've had plenty of talent. Tramon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Just now, NormSizedMidget said: Tramon He had two interceptions for the Browns. I consider that success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Just now, Packerraymond said: Your style of thinking makes sense, but it's a 1990s style of thought. I'm not saying I need a base 4-3 every single play, and I don't have a problem with a safety playing a linebacker on third downs or passing situations. I'm just saying that when we're so young in the secondary and on defense in general, simplicity makes more sense. And it's exactly because of the Rodgers and Bradys. When teams get into the no huddle against us, there's no hope because they can't communicate, and even when they do communicate, they make mistakes. When was the last time we stopped a team from scoring a TD in the hurry up? Obviously it happens, but you see my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: He had two interceptions for the Browns. I consider that success. Hahaha. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: I'm not saying I need a base 4-3 every single play, and I don't have a problem with a safety playing a linebacker on third downs or passing situations. I'm just saying that when we're so young in the secondary and on defense in general, simplicity makes more sense. And it's exactly because of the Rodgers and Bradys. When teams get into the no huddle against us, there's no hope because they can't communicate, and even when they do communicate, they make mistakes. When was the last time we stopped a team from scoring a TD in the hurry up? Obviously it happens, but you see my point. I remember the coverage lapses back when Dom first started all the time, and when we lost Collins, but there aren't many recently. If HHCD takes a bad angle on a ball or Randall bites on a double move that's a player issue, that issue will be there regardless of how simple/complex the defense is. The issue you brought up earlier about poor alignment on run downs (I brought this up on gameday) that's a scheme issue. I can tell you from meeting Dom that will be scrapped. He logs all the stuff he tries and anything that fails as much as that did gets dumped. No huddle is successful against all defenses because it keeps you locked in a personnel group and tires you physically. I haven't seen us give up points due to confusion with it, it's because there is a weak spot on the field that's stuck there and other teams exploit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 @Packerraymond, all probably good points, but I'm not and I never will be convinced it's not time to radically change our defense. Unless this defense has a 2014 style turnaround, I won't be content with anything less than a new coordinator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TransientTexan Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said: I really don't though. Hyde, Hayward, House all had pro bowl caliber years after leaving Green Bay (don't tell me House's 2015 season wasn't pro bowl caliber because it was). Woodson had all-pro and pro bowl years after leaving us. Hyde: lots of issues with this. Hyde did play well in GB. He's playing an entirely different position in BUF. 6-game sample size is insufficient. players will have a natural tendency to be better the longer they are in the league, and thus negligible improvement, if it exists, could be due to a player having had more experience at this point in time that he previously did. House: Not a PB in this universe. At best, he was "ok" in Jacksonville, just like he was "ok" at best here. Woodson: Better body of work in GB than his 2nd stint in OAK. earned PB's in both places, and he earned it at safety in OAK, not CB. In fact, one could argue that his initial move from OAK to GB resurrected his career as a CB. And you seem to be cherrypicking a guy's best year elsewhere and putting it up against his worst year in GB. 1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said: Every DB that leaves us has success elsewhere. There literally isn't any sample of a DB who played well for us at any point who didn't perform as well or better elsewhere. How about TWill? It's pretty clear his best years were in GB. And a DB playing "as well" elsewhere as in GB doesn't prove your argument. Only a DB playing better elsewhere than in GB. 1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said: But we weren't a great pass defense (bad pass defense) for most of 2014, 2013, 2012 and 2011. They were at least above-average pass defense in 09,10,12,14, and 15. That's 5 of the last 8 yr. In fact, many would argue that the pass defense was the strength of the team for most of that time. It wasn't until 2016 that the pass defense became regularly bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibrett15 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Pittsburgh is a perfect example of an elite defense that plays the same basic coverages and schemes on every down. They have a ton of young guys who are extremely comfortable in their responsibilities, and they have a great DL and pass rush group to back it up. That model still works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Just now, TransientTexan said: Hyde did play well in GB. Literally nobody would agree with you if we went by who wanted him back and how many times people yelled at him in gameday threads. You don't get this one. Hyde was not great for us, and he didn't play as well for us as he's playing now in Buffalo. Even when he alternated between CB and S (yeah, he did that for us). Quote At best, he was "ok" in Jacksonville, just like he was "ok" at best here. No. Wrong. You do not get this one, either. It was proven based on targets and yards that he had a top 5 season in Jacksonville in 2015. Top 5 as in comparable to the very best in the game based on completion percentage, QB rating, and success rate when throwing at him. You do NOT get this as a point, not granted, House played like a top 5 CB in 2015 with the Jaguars. PERIOD. Quote Woodson: Better body of work in GB than his 2nd stint in OAK. earned PB's in both places, and he earned it at safety in OAK, not CB. In fact, one could argue that his initial move from OAK to GB resurrected his career as a CB. Woodson really doesn't help either of our points. We should have kept him. We were without a safety at the time, and he went on to have all pro and pro bowl seasons at safety for the Raiders. This one's a wash. Quote And you seem to be cherrypicking a guy's best year elsewhere and putting it up against his worst year in GB. Where did I ever do that? I haven't said anything about individual seasons of those players in Green Bay. Quote How about TWill? It's pretty clear his best years were in GB. Granted, but he also left when he had clearly lost a step. Quote They were at least above-average pass defense in 09,10,12,14, and 15. That's 5 of the last 8 yr. In fact, many would argue that the pass defense was the strength of the team for most of that time. It wasn't until 2016 that the pass defense became regularly bad. 2009? This isn't even remotely true. We gave up 30 points or more 5 times in 09. We gave up a billion passing yards and 40+ points in the playoffs. Our pass defense was NOT good in 2009. They got interceptions. It wasn't a good pass defense. 2010 - Yes. 2012 - Uh, no. McMillian? Jennings? Do those names remind you of any safeties? 400 passing yards in week 1. 30+ points 4 times. Kaepernick not only ran all over us, he averaged 11 yards a pass with no interceptions and 2 touchdowns. It was a bad defense all around. 2014 - No. Well, maybe. I'll allow this one even though Ryan had 375 yards and 4 touchdowns against us. Brees had 311 and 3 touchdowns with 45 total points. It was average that year. 2015 - No. It was good against bad quarterbacks, but veteran quarterbacks picked us apart. Remember what old fart Manning did to that team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 We are going to see a different mindset on defense now for sure. With Rodgers the goal was obvious: don't give up the big play. Make the opponent have to grind and match/beat Rodgers efficiency. Now we don't have that efficiency on offense to back up against. Defense will have to be more aggressive, possibly giving up more big plays. It's a trade-off in risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyThing Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 With Rollins done for the year if not forever, I actually look forward to seeing what Hawkins can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 45 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said: With Rollins done for the year if not forever, I actually look forward to seeing what Hawkins can do. We saw it on Sunday. He was beaten like a drum by 2nd and 3rd tier WRs to the tune of about 8 rec for about 85 yards on 10 targets I think I read. Plus he missed at least 5-6 open-field tackles. And I should add, I'm not dogging the guy. I was clamoring to play him over Randall and Rollins, I've always liked Hawkins. He was the best we had and it was pretty pathetic on Sunday. CB is still a huuuugge problem for this team and it has been all year and last year. Signing House and drafting King wasn't good enough. The former has been hurt all year and been pedestrian on the field even when he does play. King is our best corner and he's still playing like a rookie in coverage, which is expected. King should be the 3rd CB on this team in terms of talent and overall play, not No. 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 49 minutes ago, incognito_man said: We are going to see a different mindset on defense now for sure. With Rodgers the goal was obvious: don't give up the big play. Make the opponent have to grind and match/beat Rodgers efficiency. Now we don't have that efficiency on offense to back up against. Defense will have to be more aggressive, possibly giving up more big plays. It's a trade-off in risk. None of it matters if we don't start getting pressure on the QB. Sunday was pitiful. That was a below-average Vikings OL and we didn't get a single sack. That's hard to do as a defense, especially with the money being paid to Matthews-Perry-Daniels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltarich87 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 TT done messed up in the 2015 draft cannot stop laughing at Randall in that last video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I think I made that exact comment in the gdt when I saw R&R both whiff on the same play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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