Week 17 GDT - Broncos VS Raiders!

[thebestever6]

How's cush look haven't heard of the bashing recently

[AKRNA]

20 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

How's cush look haven't heard of the bashing recently

Not many highlights or game film I can find. Go figure. The only ones I saw, Cush was always covered and played pretty well. His biggest issue is when he's uncovered. He's got a terrible tendency to drift to his left looking for work and go blind to the right side. He gives up that A gap way too often.

Lot's of Muti yesterday. Also saw both Risner and Schlottman lined up at RT. I think we'll see a shakeup come TC. They have to get Muti on the field and only room for two OG's. Wish I had more to offer but I can only find about 15 offensive plays total. 

Maybe thats something that @lomaxgrUK could look at. From what little I saw it was almost musical chairs out there. Anybody else notice what was going on?

[broncosfan_101]

2 hours ago, Broncofan said:

Von’s 18M salary for 2021 is 3rd in the league among EDGE’s (the 4.2M restructure bonus is Elway’s restructure to save on 2018 cap hit while paying Von the same cash salary then - Von doesn’t see a cent of that).   
 

Asking him to restructure to 12M as a pay cut would make him the 20th overall edge cash-wise.   20th.   There’s zero chance Von would agree to that.  
 

https://overthecap.com/position/edge-rusher/2021/ (click on cash spent - that’s what matters in terms of restructures / present year money paid to player).

Von’s unlikely to restructure as a straight pay cut.  In his mind, he earned the deal by his past play.    And he’ll get a ton of suitors even if he’s just top 12-15 play wise in 2022.    Unfortunately, teams knowing he can leave in FA won’t pay a mint to acquire him, either.     

Von holds the leverage.    One of the few times a player does; it’s difficult to believe he will relinquish it.   Nor should he IMO.  

 

You think Von gets $36M guaranteed anywhere else? At 32 years old??

[Broncofan]

1 hour ago, broncosfan_101 said:

You think Von gets $36M guaranteed anywhere else? At 32 years old??

That's irrelevant to the Q of a restructure for 2021.   For 2021, DEN is paying him 18M in present-year salary & roster bonus.    That's the 3rd highest EDGE salary cash-wise.  The 4.5M dead cap is from the 2018 salary restructure, it's unchangeable (and it's DEN's past money bills coming due, not Von's 2021 salary) .   DEN can either choose to honor it, or they have to cut/trade him.   Von won't be afraid of that scenario, given the market for EDGE's. 

12M is the 20th EDGE salary.  There is no way on earth that Von will accept it - and he's got the leverage here.   DEN can either release him, and someone will pay him more than that.  And most importantly -  DEN has no EDGE to replace him.   And Von knows that.

Clowney had a "cold" market and had to "settle" for 13M.   Melvin Ingram got 15M at age 32, and 42M in guaranteed salary at 4/66M overall.  Both Dupree / Matt Judon were tagged for 15.8M without hesitation.  That's the EDGE market.    And those are guys, that while all fine players, don't have Von's resume & skill set.   I know that for the future,  his age plays in - but we're not talking about future money, we're talking about a contract year that he's already signed to & committed to by the team.

And the kicker - Von has to agree to a pay cut, otherwise DEN has to cut / trade him.    Von won't have any trouble laughing at a 12m proposal - you're asking him to say he thinks teams will only pay him as the 20th EDGE in the league.    Again, look at the decisions teams made with far lesser talents - and the scarcity and value of the EDGE position.

Von's under contract - DEN doesn't have ANY leverage to a pay cut.   Von knows it.   The only way they can get a restructure (and not a pay cut) is if they offer to extend him - and then push the money down the road.   The money & the market scream this in bold letters. 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Broncofan

[broncosfan_101]

1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

That's irrelevant to the Q of a restructure for 2021.   For 2021, DEN is paying him 18M.    That's the 3rd highest EDGE salary cash-wise.  The 4.5M dead cap is from the 2018 salary.   DEN can either choose to honor it, or they have to cut/trade him.   Von won't be afraid of that scenario, given the market for EDGE's. 

12M is the 20th EDGE salary.  There is no way on earth that Von will accept it - and he's got the leverage here.   DEN can either release him, and someone will pay him more than that.  And most importantly -  DEN has no EDGE to replace him.   And Von knows that.

Clowney had a "cold" market and had to "settle" for 13M.   Melvin Ingram got 15M at age 32, and 42M in guaranteed salary at 4/66M overall.  Both Dupree / Matt Judon were tagged for 15.8M without hesitation.  That's the EDGE market.    And those are guys, that while all fine players, don't have Von's resume & skill set.   I know that for the future,  his age plays in - but we're not talking about future money, we're talking about a contract year that he's already signed to & committed to by the team.

And the kicker - Von has to agree to a pay cut, otherwise DEN has to cut / trade him.    Von won't have any trouble laughing at a 12m proposal - you're asking him to say he thinks teams will only pay him as the 20th EDGE in the league.    Again, look at the decisions teams made with far lesser talents - and the scarcity and value of the EDGE position.

Von's under contract - DEN doesn't have ANY leverage to a pay cut.   Von knows it.   The only way they can get a pay cut is they offer to extend him - and then push the money down the road.   The money & the market scream this in bold letters. 

 

Jadeveon Clowney signed for $13M total. At age 27.

Melvin Ingram signed that contract for his age 28-31 seasons. 

Dupree and Judon both given franchise tags for their age 27 and 28 seasons, respectively. 
 

None of these are even close to apples to apples. Comparing these one year deals to three year deals makes no sense. Like I said, the best comparable situationally is Brandon Graham. My mistake on Graham’s numbers, the $27M was new money, so the current contract is paying him roughly $12.5M per. That is significant, and probably means Von needs to be in the $14-15M per range, although being a year older, coming off a long term injury, and facing a shrinking salary cap could easily keep it between $12-13M annually. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by broncosfan_101
Older. Von is older than Graham. Not younger

[Broncofan]

11 minutes ago, broncosfan_101 said:

Jadeveon Clowney signed for $13M total. At age 27.

Melvin Ingram signed that contract for his age 28-31 seasons. 

Dupree and Judon both given franchise tags for their age 27 and 28 seasons, respectively. 
 

None of these are even close to apples to apples. Comparing these one year deals to three year deals makes no sense. Like I said, the best comparable situationally is Brandon Graham. My mistake on Graham’s numbers, the $27M was new money, so the current contract is paying him roughly $12.5M per. That is significant, and probably means Von needs to be in the $14-15M per range, although being a year younger, coming off a long term injury, and facing a shrinking salary cap could easily keep it between $12-13M annually. 

So you're saying Von Miller & Brandon Graham are the same.    Going forward, they might be - but again, you're missing the point - Von has to agree to this, and he has no reason to.   You honestly think Von Miller is going to accept "this is Brandon Graham money"?   That's wild.

It's Von Miller.  And it's him who has to agree to it.   Your arguments are why he would accept a FA contract offer - but that's not the situation.   You're only presenting the reasons why DEN would want to cut the money.  Von has all the leverage, because DEN has no options to replace him that are even remotely palatable.

In the end, DEN has to either pay him, extend him (which I agree would be unwise) or let another team pay him by releasing/trading him - that's their choice.  Von's not going to settle for less...because he's Von Miller, and in his mind he's earned that right - and he doesn't have to do anything but let DEN decide.    Your position misses that premise entirely.   

Edited January 4, 2021 by Broncofan

[thebestever6]

I'm shocked von hasn't pulled a demarcus ware and flocked to a contender

[germ-x]

I understand the opinion that Fangio needs to go.  I think he’s made enough clock management mistakes alone in the last 2 years to go with a losing record that it’s justifiable.

However, I think he’s hands down the best defensive coach/coordinator in the NFL.  What he just did with Denver’s defense is nothing short of phenomenal.  What Fangio did with this defense is on par and maybe more impressive than what Wade Phillips did with 2015s historic unit.

This defense had no business being a top 10 unit.  Their top 2 pass rushers were out for most of the year.  Their top 2 corners out for most of the year, and their top 3 DL out for most of the year. 

Obviously his job is not defensive coordinator, it’s running an entire team.  But if Lock (and really that is hands down the most crucial part of the future of this team) starts clicking and this offense is capable of putting up 24+ points a game (which is NFL average) with an offseason focused on defensive talent this team could be dangerous.  If Fangio is fired I do not expect the defense to keep up and this franchise could easily fall into 2 **** units on both sides of the ball.

Edited January 5, 2021 by germ-x

[jsthomp2007]

9 hours ago, germ-x said:

I understand the opinion that Fangio needs to go.  I think he’s made enough clock management mistakes alone in the last 2 years to go with a losing record that it’s justifiable.

However, I think he’s hands down the best defensive coach/coordinator in the NFL.  What he just did with Denver’s defense is nothing short of phenomenal.  What Fangio did with this defense is on par and maybe more impressive than what Wade Phillips did with 2015s historic unit.

This defense had no business being a top 10 unit.  They’re top 2 pass rushers were out for most of the year.  They’re top 2 corners out for most of the year, and their top 3 DL out for most of the year. 

Obviously his job is not defensive coordinator, it’s running an entire team.  But if Lock (and really that is hands down the most crucial part of the future of this team) starts clicking and this offense is capable of putting up 24+ points a game (which is NFL average) with an offseason focused on defensive talent this team could be dangerous.  If Fangio is fired I do not expect the defense to keep up and this franchise could easily fall into 2 **** units on both sides of the ball.

I think with the setup the Broncos have right now, even though I agree that Fangio is an amazing DC, that we wind up being the best of the bad teams in the league.  I'd rather return to one of the elite franchises who competes yearly for playoff spots and championship, which might mean you got to let Fangio go, along with Lock.  If what is holding the Broncos back is a HC and a QB, then I'd let the new GM sort that out to get us back to where we are competing with the Chiefs for the division again.