Covid-19 News/Discussion

[ET80]

1 minute ago, G said:

How can one talk about something politicalized without mentioning one's stance.

1. If you can't talk about it without getting political, then don't post.

2. If you have questions with site administration, please send a PM to a Moderator or Webby.

- ET

@bucsfan333

[G]

9 minutes ago, -Hope- said:

i would like it if you posted less so i am going to stop responding

OK, I understand...I won't post less because I just found this thread and will be going through old posts but I will try to avoid your's out of respect to not want to respond. Namaste

[G]

11 minutes ago, pwny said:

If you want a reasonable response, maybe drop the accusations of groupthink, rudimentary Pavlovian behavior, sprinkling in subtle political jabs, and the idea that you’re not misinformed while simultaneously misinterpreting statements, and ask some genuine questions.

Whatever it is that you’re trying to accomplish with your posts, I can promise you not many people are going to find it worth their time trying to wade through to have an intellectual discussion with you and to help clear up misunderstandings. 

Excellent post   

Edited August 8, 2021 by G

[pwny]

16 hours ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

And today I just heard about a study from 2015 about vaccines that don’t kill viruses causes worse strains of the virus.

Second post here. I had some time to review the study. What this is referring to isn’t a vaccine like the COVID vaccine. The mechanism that they’re referring to is one that would do absolutely nothing to lessen the likelihood of you getting the SARS-COV-2 virus, but instead let you hold the entire viral load, never get rid of the virus, and just never developed it into the disease of COVID at all. So no mechanism in it to slow the spread or attempt to lessen the likelihood of getting a viral load, it just prevented symptoms. There was a chicken vaccine that worked that way; they didn’t care about keeping the chickens from having the virus, they just didn’t want it to paralyze and kill the chickens before they could be slaughtered. The researchers posit that effectively creating a vaccine that encouraged the spread of the virus under the assumption that the disease wouldn’t ever manifest is what caused the mutation that broke through the vaccine.

This isn’t what’s going on with the COVID vaccine. The main mechanism of these vaccines is boosting your immune system’s response so that SARS-COV-2 is neutralized entirely. The asymptomatic breakthrough cases are not the norm of the vaccine the way it is with the concept they were studying, and isn’t something to worry about beyond what I mentioned in the previous post.

It is, however, something that would be kept in mind with things like AIDS, where it might seem that it makes sense to not care if someone gets HIV if you can just create a vaccine that prevents them from ever having symptoms or it developing into AIDS. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

As a vaccinated person, this is what I have a problem with: months (and months) ago, I was told that, two weeks after my second shot, I can go out without a mask on and certain restrictions will be lifted. Getting vaccinated was the line between this strange new lifestyle and the way things used to be. That sounded reasonable enough.

We now know that the vaccinated are still getting COVID, and that the symptoms are lessened. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

It's also being reported that the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine drops an average of 6% every two months, dropping to around 84% effectiveness after six months. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

Just days ago, the director of the CDC stated that the vaccine does not prevent the transmission of the virus. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

In other words: by complying with the directions I was given, it's possible that I've had COVID since my vaccination, took lesser measures because I was vaccinated, and could have potentially passed COVID to a high-risk individual who had waning protection from their vaccine. I've spent time around my parents, friends, family and members of the public, and could have put each of them at risk. And this is likely true for the majority of the 165M vaccinated in this country.

There's just so much we didn't - and still don't - know.

Edited August 8, 2021 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[vike daddy]

8 hours ago, -Hope- said:

these are maybe the funniest consecutive sentences i've ever seen on FF

not to mention his mention of the recall effort of California's governor.

oops, i mentioned it.

[ET80]

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

We now know that the vaccinated are still getting COVID, and that the symptoms are lessened. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

That's every vaccination, though - for any virus. Even with this one, you knew that the effectiveness was 90% - which leaves a 10% chance. There are people in that 10% who will get the virus.

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

It's also being reported that the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine drops an average of 6% every two months, dropping to around 84% effectiveness after six months. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

That's every vaccination as well - the flu vaccine is a yearly shot, it's not like the one flu shot you got six years ago is still effective right now, y'know?

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Just days ago, the director of the CDC stated that the vaccine does not prevent the transmission of the virus. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

Much like the flu, even if I get vaccinated for it - I can still get it and I can still spread it. It's not the most likely outcome, but it IS an outcome to be aware of as we move forward.

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

There's just so much we didn't - and still don't - know.

That's why we're calling it a novel coronavirus - humans have been around for a very long time, and this is the first time in the history of humankind we've had to deal with this particular virus. Given that, what we've discovered and developed in the last 18 months is nothing short of amazing, but it's still the tip of the iceberg with this living organism.

Things will change at times, we'll have to roll with those changes when they arise.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, ET80 said:

That's every vaccination, though - for any virus. Even with this one, you knew that the effectiveness was 90% - which leaves a 10% chance. There are people in that 10% who will get the virus.

That's every vaccination as well - the flu vaccine is a yearly shot, it's not like the one flu shot you got six years ago is still effective right now, y'know?

Much like the flu, even if I get vaccinated for it - I can still get it and I can still spread it. It's not the most likely outcome, but it IS an outcome to be aware of as we move forward.

That's why we're calling it a novel coronavirus - humans have been around for a very long time, and this is the first time in the history of humankind we've had to deal with this particular virus. Given that, it's incredible what we've discovered and developed in the last 18 months are nothing short of amazing, but it's still the tip of the iceberg with this living organism.

Things will change at times, we'll have to roll with those changes when they arise.

So, your responses here make perfect sense. And, really, I agree.

What I'm left with: shouldn't our government have known that same information? Should they have permitted the vaccinated to remove masks and enter buildings at 100% capacity, attend crowded events, etc.? Hasn't their guidance continued to put the vulnerable population at risk?

If it's all that obvious, why'd the government do what they did?

[JohnChimpo]

8 hours ago, G said:

How can one talk about something politicalized without mentioning one's stance. I'm actually trying to demonstrate a common ground to work from and why it's moved. I'd also make an educated guess of those who replied are still a part of what I once was. Unlike the poster of the team formerly from San Diego I'm not trolling. I was warned by a poster to delete my first post because what he would happen is happening and it's not worth being banned.  I disagree. I think having discussion is the only way things get better. If it didn't make people uncomfortable then they aren't talking to the right people just an echo chamber. Funny thing is I'm doing this in real life to and getting flack but it opens it up for more discussion at another time and less heated each time. I WILL try to not mention politics further so the discussion can progress because ipwny actually had me thinking before the 'Jan' thing and should be a lesson that not all 'troll's are actually trolling. Besides why would I want to discuss this with people who think like I do. No learning, growth or change can happen in those conditions. 

It was obvious to me well before reading your posts why politics are not allowed here, but by all means, keep posting in here. I have no use for an echo chamber either. Disagreement is good, as long as it’s civil.

[ET80]

35 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

What I'm left with: shouldn't our government have known that same information?

I'm not going to get into this, given I just asked someone to not get into this line of discussion a page or two ago.

37 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Should they have permitted the vaccinated to remove masks and enter buildings at 100% capacity, attend crowded events, etc?

It's a two way street - they make decisions based on a perceived compliance of a request. If that compliance isn't met, it changes the parameters - in this particular case, for the worse.

38 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Hasn't their guidance continued to put the vulnerable population at risk?

I wouldn't call it their guidance, but moreso those not following the initial direction - if that makes sense.

[ramssuperbowl99]

 

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

We now know that the vaccinated are still getting COVID, and that the symptoms are lessened. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

No vaccine producer advertised 100% efficacy. The best results in Phase 3, which were quoted over and over by major media sources and told to people in line, were 95%. This was clear.

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Just days ago, the director of the CDC stated that the vaccine does not prevent the transmission of the virus. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

The statement that "the vaccine does not prevent transmission of the virus" is wrong. The statement "the vaccine does not prevent all transmission of the virus" is accurate (though an incomplete picture). The CDC has been clear in recent days that breakthrough cases are rare and the bulk of transmission occurs in non-vaccinated individuals.

1 hour ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

In other words: by complying with the directions I was given, it's possible that I've had COVID since my vaccination, took lesser measures because I was vaccinated, and could have potentially passed COVID to a high-risk individual who had waning protection from their vaccine. I've spent time around my parents, friends, family and members of the public, and could have put each of them at risk. And this is likely true for the majority of the 165M vaccinated in this country.

I hate to burst your bubble, but you could have done this with a variety of other diseases, including the common cold or bacterial infections. It's not something that bothers you though, because it's not something that is at all likely to kill your loved ones. And as long as they are vaccinated, that is still absolutely the case with COVID.

There are 165M Americans vaccinated. There have been a total of 1.4k breakthrough deaths (and I'd speculate a large fraction of those will be in people with identifiable immune system risks). You're talking about an order of magnitude lower death risk amongst the vaccinated than the flu.

This is not a scandalous injustice or systemic failure of putting the vaccinated at risk. It's comparable to "roads are a little icy today" at best.

[bucsfan333]

8 hours ago, ET80 said:

1. If you can't talk about it without getting political, then don't post.

2. If you have questions with site administration, please send a PM to a Moderator or Webby.

- ET

@bucsfan333

This.

I cleaned up some more ****. Really wish we'd stop doing this every week.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, ET80 said:

I'm not going to get into this, given I just asked someone to not get into this line of discussion a page or two ago.

It's a two way street - they make decisions based on a perceived compliance of a request. If that compliance isn't met, it changes the parameters - in this particular case, for the worse.

I wouldn't call it their guidance, but moreso those not following the initial direction - if that makes sense.

Well, my questions have nothing to do with politics and everything to do with COVID. I assume that's not against the forum rules. (Of course, if they are, I'll happily avoid this thread entirely. I'm not a political person.)

- Many were vaccinated with the understanding that doing so would allow them to avoid certain preventative measures. (We see this guidance everywhere: "Masks are only required for unvaccinated persons", etc.)
- You made the point that the vaccine doesn't actually provide the protections that individuals such as myself were led to believe it would, and that this is common virus/vaccine knowledge.
- The CDC has confirmed that the vaccinated are spreading the virus.

I just don't understand why the government would allow vaccinated persons to unmask and put themselves in crowded, confined spaces with others while knowing that they're likely putting others at risk.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

8 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

 

No vaccine producer advertised 100% efficacy. The best results in Phase 3, which were quoted over and over by major media sources and told to people in line, were 95%. This was clear.

The statement that "the vaccine does not prevent transmission of the virus" is wrong. The statement "the vaccine does not prevent all transmission of the virus" is accurate (though an incomplete picture). The CDC has been clear in recent days that breakthrough cases are rare and the bulk of transmission occurs in non-vaccinated individuals.

I hate to burst your bubble, but you could have done this with a variety of other diseases, including the common cold or bacterial infections. It's not something that bothers you though, because it's not something that is at all likely to kill your loved ones. And as long as they are vaccinated, that is still absolutely the case with COVID.

There are 165M Americans vaccinated. There have been a total of 1.4k breakthrough deaths (and I'd speculate a large fraction of those will be in people with identifiable immune system risks). You're talking about an order of magnitude lower death risk amongst the vaccinated than the flu.

This is not a scandalous injustice or systemic failure of putting the vaccinated at risk. It's comparable to "roads are a little icy today" at best.

But it's not 95%. Pfizer has made clear that it's 84% after six months. Again, this is information that I didn't know.

From the CDC director, two days ago: "What they (the vaccines) can't do anymore is prevent transmission".

Why "burst my bubble"? Why do you give off this vibe like you've been personally attacked? I don't understand why we've been permitted to unmask and avoid other health measures knowing that doing so continues to put the vulnerable population at risk. Can you provide an answer?

Edited August 8, 2021 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[ET80]

13 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Well, my questions have nothing to do with politics and everything to do with COVID. I assume that's not against the forum rules. (Of course, if they are, I'll happily avoid this thread entirely. I'm not a political person.)

The specific question of should our government know is a very complex answer - one that doesn't really have an answer that avoids political discussion. I don't think it's a bad question, just one I can't answer without going political, y'know?

13 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

- Many were vaccinated with the understanding that doing so would allow them to avoid certain preventative measures. (We see this guidance everywhere: "Masks are only required for unvaccinated persons", etc.)
- You made the point that the vaccine doesn't actually provide the protections that individuals such as myself were led to believe it would, and that this is common virus/vaccine knowledge.
- The CDC has confirmed that the vaccinated are spreading the virus.

This isn't really an "order of operations" sort of thing; Yes, if you were vaccinated, you COULD take your mask off. Only issue? Our approach could be best described as "the honor system" without validation of whether or not someone is vaccinated - so both vaccinated and unvaccinated took off their masks. The vaccinated were fine for a bit, but then the unvaccinated started to get sick, the virus started to mutate within the unvaccinated and that mutation started to spread - next thing you know, we have a delta variant that can break through a defense.

Had the unvaccinated (at the very least) wore a mask and distanced during this period - they'd prevent getting infected, which would prevent the mutation, which would lead to no delta variant, which would mean the vaccine would still do its job against the Alpha/Beta/Gamma variants.

The break point here isn't false information from those making decisions - it's those who felt as if they didn't have to follow the rules set before everyone and go back to living life without taking the necessary precautions.

13 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I just don't understand why the government would allow vaccinated persons to unmask and put themselves in crowded, confined spaces with others while knowing that they're likely putting others at risk.

Your beef is with the unvaccinated. It was always an IF/THEN proposition - IF you get vaccinated, THEN you can remove your mask, travel and gather. If you DIDN'T get vaccinated, THEN you should wear a mask, socially distance, etc.

Unvaccinated people broke the IF, which ruined the THEN (at a microscopic rate, mind you - 165mm vaccinated with less than 2,000 deaths is a rounding error, mathematically speaking).