Dolphins trade 3rd overall pick to SF

[Soko]

20 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Except for the fact that there is no "threshold." To be an "arbitrary threshold," there has to actually be one. JFC. Nobody is saying that Mac Jones is a bad prospect because he's not 6'3" or can't throw the ball 70 yards or can't run a 4.5 40. It's not a failure to meet a specific threshold. It's all around underwhelming physical skillset.

Those saying “you don’t pick a QB in the top 3 without elite physical traits” are setting an arbitrary standard (or threshold). Like I said, most would agree that he does indeed lack those physical tools, but it’s still arbitrary. Yes, one aspect is quantitative (5’11) and the other is qualitative (underwhelming athlete with a good but not crazy arm), but that doesn’t make it any less arbitrary. When is it okay to take a good player without elite tools? Pick 5? 10? Only in the second? When does a guy have “enough physical tools” to be drafted that high? Which ones does he need to have, specifically?  

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That's quite different from a guy who was a stellar athlete with a strong arm and outstanding in all the skill and mental aspects of the game getting passed over because he was 5'11". It's much more comparable to Andy Dalton falling to the second because he had middling physical tools.

I see - you’re saying that a guy who lacked a physical trait fell in the draft. And here I’m saying that Jones is similarly being knocked for lacking elite physical traits as well. Gotcha! 

It doesn’t have to be a one-for-one. Did Russ fall because of his height, which is a physical trait? Yes or no?

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Your point is flawed because you are equating the two. They are not equal. One is a flaw in criteria. The other is simply a reality of the NFL Draft. The better talents go earlier.

Which has nothing to do with this conversation...if you read my original post. 😉 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Yin-Yang

[MWil23]

A lot of people are also forgetting the other 2 quarterback prospects in that draft with Russell Wilson, as well as his age in addition to his lack of height. Some serious hindsight bias going on there lately.

[BucsDraftGeek47]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

The funny thing is that it's not always worked out for the team getting all the assets either 😂 

Cleveland got nothing out of all the picks from julio. The Rams did "okay"  from the rg3 trade. Michael brockers was a very solid player for almost a decade and jenkins gave them 4 good years. The Wentz trade is kind of ugly for what the browns got back in the end. It's still early on the mack trade, but I'm not loving what the raiders did with that. 

If I'm not mistaken though, the titans did a really good job with the return in the goff trade, even if they didn't re-sign most of them (conklin, Corey Davis and jonnu, I think)

Lol you're not wrong 🤣

Guess I just rather be on the receiving end and hv better odds of multiple guys working out rather than all eggs in 1 basket 

[jrry32]

9 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Those saying “you don’t pick a QB in the top 3 without elite physical traits” are setting an arbitrary standard (or threshold). 

Who is saying that? It's all relative to the rest of the draft class and dependent on the player. I think the 49ers would be foolish to trade what they did to get up to #3 and take Jones. That's not because of some arbitrary threshold. It's because of my opinions on Jones and the rest of this class.

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Like I said, most would agree that he does indeed lack those physical tools, but it’s still arbitrary. Yes, one aspect is quantitative (5’11) and the other is qualitative (underwhelming athlete with a good but not crazy arm), but that doesn’t make it any less arbitrary. When is it okay to take a good player without elite tools? Pick 5? 10? Only in the second? When does a guy have “enough physical tools” to be drafted that high? Which ones does he need to have, specifically?

It's not arbitrary. It's logical. Jones isn't the caliber of prospect that for whom you trade three firsts and a third to take at #3. His underwhelming physical traits are a big part of the reason why (and calling his arm "good" is an overstatement). But they're not the sole reason why. 

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I see - you’re saying that a guy who lacked a physical trait fell in the draft. And here I’m saying that Jones is similarly being knocked for lacking elite physical traits as well. Gotcha!

Correct. And Andy Dalton didn't deserve to be a top 5 pick either.  

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It doesn’t have to be a one-for-one. Did Russ fall because of his height, which is a physical trait? Yes or no?

He fell because of an arbitrary threshold, not underwhelming overall physical traits. It's a poor comparison.

[MWil23]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

The Wentz trade is kind of ugly for what the browns got back in the end.

I’ll go to the grave defending that:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/brownswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/19/tracking-the-crazy-end-results-of-the-browns-eagles-carson-wentz-trade/amp/
 

TL; DR

The Browns got Denzel Ward, OBJ, and Jordan Elliott (DT) to go with the rest of the picks they bungled. I’ll take my Pro Bowl CB and even OBJ as opposed to arguably the worst quarterback in all of 2020.

 

[Forge]

Just now, MWil23 said:

I’ll go to the grave defending that:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/brownswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/19/tracking-the-crazy-end-results-of-the-browns-eagles-carson-wentz-trade/amp/
 

TL; DR

The Browns got Denzel Ward, OBJ, and Jordan Elliott (DT) to go with the rest of the picks they bungled. I’ll take my Pro Bowl CB and even OBJ as opposed to arguably the worst quarterback in all of 2020.

 

Wasn't ward from the Texans trade?

[Forge]

4 minutes ago, Forge said:

Wasn't ward from the Texans trade?

Ahh, I see it was built in as part of the Wentz trade. That's a lot to unpack because I'd argue you likely have to consider watson as part of the outgoing package. But it does ultimately make the picks made look better even if the trade has them on the bad end

[MWil23]

9 minutes ago, Forge said:

Wasn't ward from the Texans trade?

...which was a pick from the Wentz trade  

[Forge]

Just now, MWil23 said:

...which was a pick from the Wentz trade  

Yeah, I addressed it. Makes the overall trade look worse because of Watson, but does make the picks better. 

[MWil23]

6 minutes ago, Forge said:

Ahh, I see it was built in as part of the Wentz trade. That's a lot to unpack because I'd argue you likely have to consider watson as part of the outgoing package. But it does ultimately make the picks made look better even if the trade has them on the bad end

Ironically, they traded the #12 pick because Mahomes was gone and they thought he’d be there, not taking KC into account via trade up.  

[MWil23]

Just now, Forge said:

Yeah, I addressed it. Makes the overall trade look worse because of Watson, but does make the picks better. 

We are currently responding to each other simultaneously. This is great 😂 

[Forge]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

Ironically, they traded the #12 pick because Mahomes was gone and they thought he’d be there, not taking KC into account via trade up.  

Was that their guy? I remember there being talk about them liking one and only one QB at the top in that draft, or something like that. I remember everyone just assuming it was Trubs. If their guy was Mahomes, that's a rough break 

[MWil23]

7 minutes ago, Forge said:

Was that their guy? I remember there being talk about them liking one and only one QB at the top in that draft, or something like that. I remember everyone just assuming it was Trubs. If their guy was Mahomes, that's a rough break 

Yeah, they felt they HAD to get Myles at 1, but they had Mahomes as their definite guy that draft. No worries, I’m sure Hue Jackson would have ruined Patrick.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cantonrep.com/sports/20180917/john-dorsey-heard-browns-footsteps-when-he-traded-for-patrick-mahomes%3ftemplate=ampart

Ironically, it was Dorsey who drafted him in KC, and found out because Hue Jackson was the leak in the building. 😂 

Edited March 28, 2021 by MWil23

[Soko]

35 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Who is saying that? It's all relative to the rest of the draft class and dependent on the player. I think the 49ers would be foolish to trade what they did to get up to #3 and take Jones. That's not because of some arbitrary threshold. It's because of my opinions on Jones and the rest of this class.

A guy literally posted it on the same page as the comment you initially quoted me on, lol. It’s a paraphrase, but he said you don’t take a QB top 3 without elite traits, in regards to Jones. 

I agree that moving up that far for Jones is likely an overpay, considering where he’s projected to go. But I did preface that, saying this is all assuming Shanny views him as “his guy” and is confident that he’d be gone at or around the third pick. That’s the only way to justify making that trade and taking Mac, but who actually knows.

35 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

It's not arbitrary. It's logical. Jones isn't the caliber of prospect that for whom you trade three firsts and a third to take at #3. His underwhelming physical traits are a big part of the reason why (and calling his arm "good" is an overstatement). But they're not the sole reason why. 

It is arbitrary, because it varies by each person’s opinion (as in exactly how many/which traits specifically you need to have in order to be a top 3 pick). Knocks on Mac are valid to me, but I prefaced my whole comment on the above assumptions that Shanahan has to be making in order to justify Mac. 

35 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Correct. And Andy Dalton didn't deserve to be a top 5 pick either.  

We’re in agreement!

35 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

He fell because of an arbitrary threshold, not underwhelming overall physical traits. It's a poor comparison.

He fell because he lacked a physical trait that didn’t meet an arbitrary threshold. With those above assumptions in mind (and I’ll keep reiterating them because they’re an important part of my point), not taking Mac because of his lacking of elite physical traits, despite viewing him as the superior QB (assumption), is the same premise. 

[jrry32]

7 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

A guy literally posted it on the same page as the comment you initially quoted me on, lol. It’s a paraphrase, but he said you don’t take a QB top 3 without elite traits, in regards to Jones. 

Well, I apologize for wasting your time, then. Because I agree with you that that's a bad take. I just don't see these circumstances as similar to Russell Wilson. But you don't either, it appears.

Edited March 28, 2021 by jrry32