Raiders sign WR Willie Snead

[NYRaider]

6 minutes ago, NickButera said:

I'm surprised his thread got buried after only 3 pages. I'm really high on him and think he's going to have a huge impact. His first two years getting snaps, on a very good seattle team, he was able to contribute more qb hits than games played. 

We took some gambles addressing our interior pass rush. But hopefully Rod can get the most out of Hurst, Irving, Jefferson, and Thomas. It's a pretty weak defensive tackle class and ideally Ferrell will be able to contribute as a pass rusher playing inside. 

[ronjon1990]

7 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

But you loved Rankins who hasn't produced since 2018. Irving is an extremely talented player and has a great relationship with Rod. Waller also had issues with the substance abuse policy early on in his career and ever produced at a high level like Irving did in Dallas. He's only 27 years old and on a 1 yr deal I think we'll see his best football. 

Meh, I think Waller and Irving are two different cats though. 

Waller put in the hard work to turn his life around and hold himself accountable to his teammates as soon as it was clear he either do so lest his career be jeopardized. 

Irving took his ball and went home like he was the center of the universe and the only player in the league not allowed to do whatever he was doing. 

By all means, I hope Irving turned his life totally around as far as David Irving the human being goes. Who wouldn't? That's simply being a decent person. But he's far less sympathetic a case than Waller and worthy of the increased scrutiny. Those are two decidedly different personality types. Not to vilify either, substance abuse issues aren't a light matter. But I wouldn't treat the two cases as being similar in any way other than the title of their "offenses". 

[Jeremy408]

24 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Quinton Jefferon has some juice as an interior pass rusher as well. 

What I like about Quinton Jefferson is that he’s good depth. Part of the reason why our interior pass rush was sorry last year is because we had like zero depth. I think they were a couple weeks for both Malik Collins and Maurice Hurst we’re both out

[NYRaider]

7 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Meh, I think Waller and Irving are two different cats though. 

Waller put in the hard work to turn his life around and hold himself accountable to his teammates as soon as it was clear he either do so lest his career be jeopardized. 

Irving took his ball and went home like he was the center of the universe and the only player in the league not allowed to do whatever he was doing. 

Irving's flashes in Dallas were borderline elite, Waller had never really produced before he got here and wasn't even on the Ravens roster. Waller was suspended twice for violating the NFL's substance abuse policy early in his career. IIRC, Irving was suspended for the substance abuse policy as well. 

Waller himself admitted that he even considered retirement because he lost his love for the game. And to be completely honest if we didn't see Waller warming up who knows where he'd be at with his career. 

Irving knows this is his last opportunity and signed with us because of his relationship with Rod. I think having someone like Waller in the locker room will actually help Irving stay on track. 

 

[Frankie2Gunz]

19 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

But you loved Rankins who hasn't produced since 2018. Irving is an extremely talented player and has a great relationship with Rod. Waller also had issues with the substance abuse policy early on in his career and ever produced at a high level like Irving did in Dallas. He's only 27 years old and on a 1 yr deal I think we'll see his best football. 

Once again you're reaching and missing the point.  I like Rankins and I wanted to sign him because I feel like he posed good value at 8 million based on his production in 2018 and now that he is 1 year removed from his achilles tear.  Tearing of the achilles tendon is perhaps the worst injury a player today can sustain and takes at least 1 full year to regain explosiveness.  

You do understand that a player like Rankin's production has fallen off because of injuries/ recovering from a devastating injury while Irving hasn't performed and quit football since he was busted for PED's.  There is a massive difference between the two in terms of talent as one was a top 15 pick in the 1st round and the other an UDFA that most likely juiced so he could make it in the NFL then got busted and has done nothing since then.  I don't blame him for taking that chance but unless he is on the juice now he will most likely amount to nothing.  

You liken Waller to Irving with zero context.  Waller abused recreational drugs and Irving abused PED's to enhance his play on the field.  I assume you see the difference there.

[NYRaider]

Just now, Frankie2Gunz said:

You liken Waller to Irving with zero context.  Waller abused recreational drugs and Irving abused PED's to enhance his play on the field.  I assume you see the difference there.

Based on everything I've read, the majority of Irving's suspensions were due to testing positive for smoking pot with one 4 game suspension coming for PED usage. 

[NYRaider]

@Frankie2Gunz

Quote

Irving’s retirement in March 2019 — at the age of 25 — was straight out of Hollywood. He had been suspended for a third time for a substance abuse policy violation, so he lit up a blunt, took to Instagram Live and announced that his career had indeed gone up in a cloud of smoke. 

“Everybody thought I was crazy when I did that,” Irving said, “but now I don’t look so crazy.”

The league eliminated suspensions for positive marijuana tests in its collective bargaining agreement approved last March, and Irving applied for reinstatement in late July. The Raiders signed him to the practice squad in October, but Irving played only 40 defensive snaps over two games down the stretch due to heart, knee and COVID-19 issues. 

Quote

“David has unbelievable athletic ability and can be just as good as any other player at his position in the NFL. David can be a perennial Pro Bowl player like DeForest Buckner.” 

 

[Jeremy408]

1 minute ago, ronjon1990 said:

Responding a bit out of order, so I numbered them. 

1. The LBs and secondaries absolutely impact the ability of D-linemen to get to the passer. His big year in Sacksonville, they were ridiculously stingy in coverage. Our secondary is the drizzling $#!+$ and every two-bit offensive mind in the league knows that. Kwit and Littleton are ok-above average LBs, but we still got absolutely abused in the run game. (Somewhat Related Sidenote: I see some people referencing the Chiefs games, to which I say the Chiefs are the perfect example of a team buoyed by a transcendent QB, much like the Saints and Packers have long been. We got into shootouts with the Chiefs, which really isn't surprising to me. Our offense was far from awful, and the Chiefs D hasn't been a whole lot to write home about. Anyways, moving on.). When we can't cover anyone and teams know we can't stop the run, the pass rush suffers tremendously. That's Defense 101. Edge rushers, particularly pass rush specialists, are only as good as the defense around them. With poor coverage and shaky LB play, teams will simply abuse them with screens and quick passes- something we saw last year game after game. In Jacksonville, he played with Calais Cambell drawing attention, Malik Jackson being no slouch, Gipson, Bouye, and Ramsey providing very good-astounding coverage, solid run stopping LBs with Myles Jack and Telvin Smith (why isn't he still playing, btw?) being bonafide top 20 LBs during that span. The back end was covered, the short pass/screen game locked down, and O-lines having to scheme for 3 bonafide D-linemen in Yannick, Campbell, and Jackson. That's absolutely huge for a pass rusher and nothing we can remotely offer. 

2.1 & 2.2 Allen very well could have benefited from Campbell and Yannick, which only furthers my point: stats can get hyperinflated by virtue of who they're playing alongside. Again, nobody is saying Yannick is bad. But let's temper the expectations and get a dose of reality. Maybe Allen was a benefactor and one hit wonder, maybe he's the next coming of Kevine Greene. You're right that we can't tell yet. The same as we can't possibly know what Yannick's impact will be on a team with Swiss cheese coverage and a bunch of speed bump run defenders instead of his previous runs with some of the best secondaries and LB units in the league. He certainly didn't transform Minnesota's D, which wasn't nearly as bereft of talent as ours is. They have a better secondary than we have and far better LBs, though like us, they had glaring holes on the D-line. Didn't work out very well for them, and Mike Zimmer is a far better defensive mind than Gruden and Bradley. Once in Baltimore, he wasn't transformative either. He played alongside some good players there too and was alright, but hardly a star or Baltimore would've been trying harder to keep him. Thinking he's going to come into a defense with even worse talent and transform this ragtag bunch into a functional defense is nothing but hopes and prayers. Did we sign the sack master from Sacksonville, or did we sign the guy who gets 4 sacks alongside better talent than we can offer? It's a fair question as it wouldn't be the first time someone got a nice deal only to flop. I remember when Jadaveon Clowney was a can't miss Julius Peppers clone who was going to take the league by storm and knock helmets off of QBs (additional side note: Kenny Young has knocked off more helmets than Jedaveon Clowney). So I'm very harsh on signings with backgrounds that don't ooze consistent Probowl caliber play. 

3. Tyson Alualu was a fairly decent starter early in his career. Ironically, he's a guy who didn't live up to hype in terms of sacks, but has always been a solid DT. Point being, we would kill to have a Tyson Alualu at DT. Given the scrubs we have been plugging the D-line with, I dare say Alualu would have a bigger impact on the defense as a whole than Yannick will, simply for being an undeniable upgrade over what we have in the same position.

A decent player surrounded by decent players will always turn out better pigeonholing a superstar in with a bunch of scrubs. We've been through the "lets sign a superstar and the rest of the team will get better!" routine before when we plucked Randy Moss. The team around him sucked, and he made no impact, but sure did when around competent players in New England afterwards. Been there, done that bought jersey. 

I'll be 100% honest: I firmly believe that Yannick will come back to bite us in the @$$. The guy wasn't producing at any more of a clip than Crosby has. He wanted to get paid royally though, infinitely more than anyone here would be willing to pay Crosby going forward. I hope I'm wrong. I WANT to be wrong, because I'm tired of losing and hemorrhaging money to wasted signings. But I can't shake the feeling that Yannick knows he took a discount with the full intent of cashing in later. And you know what scares me about all of that history lesson? That Yannick isn't any more productive than Crosby but we fall for it and actually pay him royally and remain strapped for cash while chasing unicorns yet again based on a narrative that he's more than the record will support he is. 

As it stands, we have 5 glaring holes to fill with a starting caliber player (2 DTs, 1 LB [no, I'm not a believer in Morrow], NCB/CB2, FS) and 3 spots where upgraded play is needed to field anything close to respectable (DE, SS, CB2/NCB). I think people are severely underestimating just how many holes that is to fill, and relying on the Draft isn't going to cut it with our track record. Upgrading/filling 3-5 holes on D to even just mask the other numerous weak links is going to take at least 4 years at the rate we're drafting players worth playing on D. We didn't need a STAR player on D on a short lease with a bigger payday sure to come bite us. We needed STAR playerS on deals that will keep them around to see our longer term goals sink or swim as we draft and develop, or, we needed to focus on signing starting but not spectacular talent that rounds out a respectable roster. 

We've failed on that front, imo. We're signing short leases like we're the dynastic Patriots one player away from the promise land with a robust history of successfully plugging holes with guys chasing rings. We aren't building the foundation of a team, we've engaged in patchwork pipe dreaming that always ends in (another) rebuilding process. 

1. They were called Sacksonville for a reason. I'm not saying that they didn't cover but I'm saying pass rush was the main attraction of that defense so we can't get it twisted. As far as what you said about the run vs pass and Rockaway playing with superior linebackers of course youre not wrong but to give some perspective: The sacksonville defense was bottom 12 against the run but was #2 overall. .That tells you how good that pass rush really was. As someone who played corner for most of my life, I definitely know the relationship between a pass rush and coverage and I'll be the first to tell you that you can be an average player and look much better with the pass rush and you can be a good player who looks great because of the pass rush. Don't get me wrong corner is VERY important But there's a reason why pass rushers are usually the highest paid non-quarterbacks in the NFL. 

I noticed you mentioned how Mike Zimmer is a better defense of mind than Gus Bradley And how If Ngakoue didn't thrive with Zimmer then how is he going to thrive with Bradley. There's a couple of things wrong with that premise. 1. Do you know the difference between their systems? Zimmer runs the same defense as Paul Gunther(Just runs it better). Call Gunthers Defense the defensive end are bigger edge players that are asked to do a lot in the run game(See Carlos Dunlap and Everson Griffin). Ngakoue was a head scratching trade because he's more of a speed rusher And is less than 250lbs. Even then in half a season he had four sacks(Before going to the ravens mid season and getting four more sacks totaling eight sacks on the season). In Gus Bradley's defense The emphasis on edge rushers Are there small speed rushing guys When it comes to passing downs. Ngakoue played for Gus Bradley as a rookie and produced nine sacks. With no supporting cast(So it's not like this theoretical thing like can he produce in a Gus Bradley system) Scheme is something you can't ignore. Very few players transcend schemes. 

2. Here's the thing though you don't take the proven player and say that he is the liability to the rookie. During his time in Jacksonville Ngakoue is the only player who had consistently eight sacks or more each season. You had class Campbell who had 10 and 14 sacks. If Im And offensive coordinator or an O line coach I'm not thinking to myself let's double-team the rookie and let the guy who's had eight or more sacks in a season since he was a rookie get the one on one lol.

3. I have no idea where the Tyson Alualu love is coming from but you know he's 34 right And has never had more than four sacks in a season. I don't understand how that somehow compares to Yannick Ngakoue who has had eight or more sacks in a season every year he's been in the NFL regardless of what team he's played for since he was a rookie.

Again I don't say all of this to say he's a superstar by any means I'm saying he will help the pass rush tremendously which will help the back end coverage which will the rest of the defense as a whole. Yes we definitely can cover better and I believe we will win a simpler defense thats more conducive for young players. I think the answer to a lot of the Raiders problems are just the younger players have to take the next step in their development which wasn't gonna happen with the coordinator that we had. More realistically the only two spots that from a talent standpoint we don't have anybody to fill the role the roster is FS and RT. Everything else we have the talent to actually play it's just going to come down to is the talent going to materialize. We can't get free agents realistically to fill every spot we have to develop the young players that we drafted.

 

[Frankie2Gunz]

13 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

@Frankie2Gunz

 

Who's opinion is that?  Anyone can wright anything they want on the internet, that doesn't make it a fact.  

You do know Irving was busted for PED's in 2017 correct? 

Once again you're cherry picking suspensions that fit your flawed narrative.  You do understand what PED's do and how they enhance performance correct?

Whoever's opinion you quoted there is comparing an UDFA talent who's only productive season was fueled by PED's to a 7th overall pick in the 1st round.  A clean Irving and Buckner are not in the same universe LOL 

[Jeremy408]

44 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Meh, I think Waller and Irving are two different cats though. 

Waller put in the hard work to turn his life around and hold himself accountable to his teammates as soon as it was clear he either do so lest his career be jeopardized. 

Irving took his ball and went home like he was the center of the universe and the only player in the league not allowed to do whatever he was doing. 

By all means, I hope Irving turned his life totally around as far as David Irving the human being goes. Who wouldn't? That's simply being a decent person. But he's far less sympathetic a case than Waller and worthy of the increased scrutiny. Those are two decidedly different personality types. Not to vilify either, substance abuse issues aren't a light matter. But I wouldn't treat the two cases as being similar in any way other than the title of their "offenses". 

Actually they're very similar in that Waller has mentioned that when he was in the ravens he was trying to get kicked out of the NFL and that he didn't care about others. 

[Jeremy408]

47 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

We took some gambles addressing our interior pass rush. But hopefully Rod can get the most out of Hurst, Irving, Jefferson, and Thomas. It's a pretty weak defensive tackle class and ideally Ferrell will be able to contribute as a pass rusher playing inside. 

The thing this year is we're not at the mercy of Hearst staying healthy and Malik Collins panning out. Last year Malik Collins was practically handed the job. We have four defensive tackles that are going to compete for a starting job But the very least we're going to have someone that has talent as a starter and will have good depth from whoever doesn't win the job(Provided we don't cut anyone like we did Demerius Randall smh).

[Jeremy408]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

But you loved Rankins who hasn't produced since 2018. Irving is an extremely talented player and has a great relationship with Rod. Waller also had issues with the substance abuse policy early on in his career and ever produced at a high level like Irving did in Dallas. He's only 27 years old and on a 1 yr deal I think we'll see his best football. 

The Rankins love is what I never got 

[NYRaider]

3 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Who's opinion is that?  Anyone can wright anything they want on the internet, that doesn't make it a fact.  

You do know Irving was busted for PED's in 2017 correct? 

Once again you're cherry picking suspensions that fit your flawed narrative.  You do understand what PED's do and how they enhance performance correct?

Whoever's opinion you quoted there is comparing an UDFA talent who's only productive season was fueled by PED's to a 7th overall pick in the 1st round.  A clean Irving and Buckner are not in the same universe LOL 

I understand what PED's to for performance but the majority of Irving's trouble was related to substance abuse, aka weed, just like Waller. 

Quote

 

David Irving became the latest in a long line of Dallas Cowboys pass rushers to be suspended by the NFL after getting hit with  a four-game ban for violating the league's PED policy this offseason. Irving claimed after being suspended that he took a supplement that had a substance in it he was not expecting, which triggered the positive test.

"Everything listed on the bottle was fine. It was supposed to be all natural, but [it had] a hidden ingredient," Irving said via Jon Machota of the Dallas Morning News. "It was a substance that actually wasn't even listed on the bottle. When I asked about the substance, they don't even know the substance. I guess my testosterone levels were too high.

 

Even before the PED suspension he had 4 sacks as a rotational piece for the Cowboys in 2016. Irving is clearly a very talented player, do I think he's going to break out and be a dominant force? Probably not. But I definitely think he has a chance to be a solid contributor for our interior pass rush. It's a low risk, high reward situation on a 1 yr/$1M deal. 

Rankins has one good year of sack production playing on a stacked defense and hasn't been able to stay healthy. When he stopped playing/became less effective the Saints defense and pass rush actually improved. 

 

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, Jeremy408 said:

The Rankins love is what I never got 

1st round pedigree goes a long way but the Saints were fine with letting him walk and he hasn't been productive or healthy in over two years. 

[Jeremy408]

8 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

1st round pedigree goes a long way but the Saints were fine with letting him walk and he hasn't been productive or healthy in over two years. 

Here's a comparison in terms of their measurable's and athleticism irrespective of where they were picked:

Sheldon Rankins

height 6-2(not that it matters)

weight 305

40:5.03

vert 34

3-cone:7.44

arm length:33

Cost: 8M

David Irving

height 6-7(not that it matters)

Weight 290

40: 4.84

vert 38

3-Cone 7.27

arm length:35

Cost: 1M

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jeremy408